Danger: Hidden In Plain Sight

Real life presents the Jack Hibbs podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture. Social media was coming after my attention. Artificial intelligence is coming after my affection. Oh wow. The distance that exists between children and life-changing harm is thinner than ever. Am I being too cynical to say that these corporations are grooming these little ones with a little bit of titillation to the brain to keep them coming back. This is all about these just horrific acts and it's just this appetite for chaos. It's not going away, it's not really, isn't it? You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to jackhibbs.com slash podcast. Today, if this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five star ratings. To us, that's like saying amen or yes, then that rating will encourage others to listen. Now open your hearts to what God's word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. Well hey friends, do you have any idea that the use of devices can be just as addictive as drugs? I'm not making it up. The patterns of the brain, the response, the reaction, all of that rush that comes is something that is very dangerous. That's why we have brought to you today a very special program. We've asked if Chris McKenna would join us. This young man knows what's going on and is going to be able to address some of the things and we're going to have a sit down and I hope you stay tuned and I hope you get a lot out of what we're about to experience. It's great to have you. Thank you Pastor Jack. Listen, you've made the journey all the way from Grand Rapids, Michigan to be with us. It's so important for us to bring you out here for this. Before we get going, tell the people who you are, what you do, and just before we came on, I prayed that you have job security because evil is getting more evil. But we need you. But what is it about Chris McKenna? How did you get into this and what ministries do you represent? I never expected to be doing this. I'd love to be out of a job. I mean, please Lord, make it all. I'd love to find something else to do, but I love the Lord. I'm a husband and my wife Andrea, 26 years, a father to four. I have a daughter in college and then three teen boys, grades eight, nine, and ten, so I'm right in it. Yes, you are. I think it's important for parents to know that I'm just not making up big ideas. I am stumbling and bumbling through the digital age, just like many watching or listening to this. I was in ministry and I was in ministry in a time after a career in business. The Lord called me out of the business world and into student ministry because being a junior high youth pastor is just like being a CPA. They're identical, right? Yes, sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I watched us in this span of time from 2009 to 2016, unleashed technology in the childhood. And there was something unsettling about that to me. There's a man who for years, in my early years, had struggled with pornography myself, had come through that through Christ and accountability that I watched us put that monster back in kids pockets. Yes. And that was terrifying to me. So, I launched a little Facebook group that led to a website and then I started Protect Young Eyes, which is the organization that I represent in 2015, really just wanting to educate, right? I'm a guy who likes to see problems and fix problems that comes from that kind of business background. And they send it up being a much bigger problem than I even expected. And so, now about 10 years into this, I lead a team that speaks around the world in schools and churches, trying to raise awareness, tons of education on our website, and conversations like this, because it's not going away, really, isn't. In fact, if anything, and certainly our Jesus is true and his word is true, he warned us that the days would get worse, hall warned us that the days would get worse. And we're seeing that very thing happen. And in this area where the innocent now are the ones that are really most in the cross areas. It's remarkable. I mean, talk about wolves consuming sheep. It's going on in this world of technology that, frankly, I think a lot of parents, they're busy. Sure. And so, how many times have we seen at a restaurant or somewhere where the parents hand the kid a device to babysit them? But little do they know that that is a world that is beyond what Mom and Dad might think. I mean, they might have heard that, you know, we've got to watch how long he's on the device or she's on the device. Or, you know, we've got safety things put on. Sure. It's at the toggles. Yeah, yeah. But in reality, the world now has gotten so dark and so sinister in the little ones under attack. Let's start out with this. What do you say to parents who would say right now to this conversation, oh Chris and Jack, I appreciate what you're doing, but I'm going to go do something else right now because my kids really a good boy, my kids a good girl, and they would never go down that route. What would you say to them about that, naive, I guess? This is not an issue of good and bad kids. That's right. This is an issue of amazing children and technology that wasn't designed for them. Yeah. Let me change that. Actually, was designed with them in mind, but not for their thriving, right? There's a difference because when you hand that device to a child, what's totally different about childhood today is the distance that exists between children and life changing harm is thinner than ever. When you and I were growing up, the places that were good for us versus the places that were harmful to us were often separated by relationship, distance, something. I sometimes joked that if I was going to look at something I shouldn't or do something I shouldn't in the small town that I lived in, it required enormous amount of planning. I needed a flow chart if I was going to try to get away with something because there was distance. You had to sneak into someone's home who had confiscated something so you could watch it. This was planning, right? That doesn't exist. Wow. There was a distance, a chasm that existed. Everybody's childhood was the same, but there was this distance that no longer exists. And that's the thing that I want parents to understand is that that same device where they can be on FaceTime with grandma can learn their ABCs, can show them the most horrific content on earth in a matter of clicks if they're not careful. And so that's the difference. It's not that things these days that kids play with are just toys anymore, right? You may be have locked that thing down, but on any iPad that a parent has told me Chris I've locked this thing down, I bet I could find ten different ways to content that they don't want their kids to see because again it wasn't designed with their children's thriving in mind. Wow. As you were just now speaking, in my minds I saw the danger of a kid picking up a knife as an equivalent, but that's not even true because a kid could pick up a knife not knowing what it is, the knife is not going to attack them. That's right. Mom and dad can get the knife out of their hand. Yeah. We're not even talking about a gun. We're talking about a technology that is engineered to go after them. It's not like the knife attacks the kid, but these players within the social media world are using this technology to actually attack your child. Yeah, you've pointed out something really important and that is sometimes I'll hear their argument, well Chris is just a tool. Sometimes you hear the same thing about money, right? Money isn't evil. How you use money, right? That's the scripture. This is different. This is different. I challenge parents all the time with that question right in our presentations. Is it really neutral? Because it's easy to buy that lie that it's a tool, no, it's not. It is. To your point, you used a brilliant word there, it is engineered. It is crafted to extract human attention. And that was the benign version of technology, meaning social media. Jack, we are now with artificial intelligence. I mean, we're in a whole different country with the veracity and the power and the intelligence that this new technology has in terms of what it's coming after neurologically, right? Social media was coming after my attention, which was, give me as much minutes and hours as possible. Artificial intelligence is coming after my affection. Oh wow. Social media gave us the lie that you can be connected to everybody. We kind of bought into that. Artificial intelligence is promising something much more sinister. And that is, I just want a relationship with you. With you. Just you. I want you. That's great. I want to pull you in. And you see it. If anybody, right, when we use Chad GPT at the bottom, it is keeping you hooked. It wants to offer you the next thing. It wants to turn it into a PowerPoint. It wants to put it in this different form, whatever question you typed in, why? Because it wants to stay connected to you. Wow. Right? And so, yeah, these are the conversations that I need parents to be having to prepare their kids for this kind of world. So what are some of the things, and I hate to say this, but for shock factor, because it's almost as though the switch is either on or off with parents, denial or hyper-sensitive stuff. Sure. That said, what are some of the things that our average viewer right now, they're not aware of. They need to be aware of it. It's one of Chris's passions to raise the flag of what? So let me paint this scenario. Sure. Johnny's nine years old. He's got an iPad. And what is Johnny possibly having access to? Look, he's watching Rubik's cubes, or building blocks, or he's doing, he's doing, you know, size comparisons of buildings, all these kinds of things. Innocent enough, but so to speak, there's somebody on the backside of that screen, so to speak. Yeah. What would be coming after him? How do they even do that? How do they invade, while moms at the kitchen, or dads doing the lawn? Well, you use Rubik's cube. That's a great one. My 16-year-old son, Cube Master, right, and learned some of that from watching YouTube videos. YouTube is the most popular destination for kids in America. Someone say, oh, it's tick-tockers. I'm a stupid kid. A kid of Snapchat. Yeah, I know. Formula One. I know whatever you want, yeah. I can't fix a thing in my house without a YouTube video, right? Truly. Now, YouTube can be great in that way, but YouTube is what is called a mixed content destination. It's not just, you know, programming for kids. It is everything. That's so true. Right? Yeah. And a lot of parents, especially parents, will be watching this conversation. They're adequately concerned about pornography, so they put filters in place. They know that's bad. This is going to sound totally backwards. I'm concerned, but I'm less concerned about that for this audience, because they already know that's a problem. They're probably addressing that. Mr. Jack, there are a hundred, maybe a thousand other mature concepts that I don't want children consuming, right? All kinds of situations present in videos that they might watch, right? YouTube is a million different voices with a million different distorted opinions and thoughts and ideas, right? It's not back in the... I just had a conversation with somebody who was trying to talk to their grandma, this beautiful woman in her 90s, who loved YouTube. And she thought that everything on YouTube was real. That's true. It was true. Because her perspective was one where whoever was on the TV talking, whether it was Walter Cronkite, Tom Brokaw, whoever it was, that was a trustworthy voice. They must be believable, right? And it was shocking to this grandmother that anybody can upload anything to YouTube. That was a revelation to her, and that is exactly what it is. And the settings on YouTube are imperfect. So I'm concerned that that kid would see something pornographic, but I am more concerned and what happens all the time is the violence is all the mature situations. All the ideologies and ideas that young people should not be hearing too much too soon is the phrase that we use way too much too soon. Yeah. And so I don't want any child in elementary school to be watching YouTube without a parent alongside. One of the principles that we talk about is kind of shoulder to shoulder. We want parents with kids. Technology is always better in the home, especially when they're young when it's a reactivity and not a me-activity. Yeah. Because I want parents learning and seeing what they're seeing so that can lead to conversation. So that's one that parents totally underestimate YouTube. And I can't tell you how many hundreds and hundreds of messages I've received over the years of kids who were consuming content that totally changed them from YouTube. Well, and I assume this is true. I have no reason to doubt it, but I don't want to assume so, I guess. So like YouTube kids or the version of that, the parents are going to think automatically just like 90-year-old grandma. Right. Oh, look. I can relax. It's YouTube kids. But I was told, and I don't know if this is true or not. But even in YouTube kids, they had cartoons or programs where there's homosexual characters. And there's strange conversations that the parents would no way approve of, but they allow it ignorantly because, after all, that's YouTube kids, just like grandma said, well, it's Tom Brokaw. You're absolutely right. You could set the settings, the age ratings, and YouTube kids for age two, and I've done this. Because I have a son with Down syndrome, even though he's a teenager, has the executive function and stopping cues of about a seven-year-old, and so I have to be very careful that his curiosity doesn't get weaponized through videos, and just click, click, click, click, click. I can tell you that at age two, on YouTube kids, you're exactly right. Really? Yeah. Here's the thing. I don't care if it says YouTube preschool. Let's think about who's in charge of who's in charge of having a child. Who's in charge of trusting the heads of Google, the heads of meta, whether it's Instagram, the heads of Snapchat, right? Do you really believe that they're thinking about the heart and soul of your child when they're creating these settings, right? That's why the settings or whatever filters aren't placed on a device are just one of multiple layers of protection that are necessary, because I am not trusting the heart of my child to what YouTube kids think is appropriate for my kid. Well, please stop if I'm wrong, and I honestly speak for ignorance. I'm not a techie person. So here's the thing, not only do I agree with you that they don't care what that young one sees, but on their end, I would imagine, because it's just business where if I can groom this kid early to get some form of devotion from them to keep clicking, then I can feed them other things as they grow along. This is going to be a long-term relationship between junior and Google, or whoever it is, whatever it is, so that if I can start, and maybe you can speak to this, if I can start triggering those areas of the brain that are responsible for establishing addictions in our lives, be it cocaine, be it porn, be it adrenaline rushes, people jumping off of perfectly fine bridges with a rubber band tied to their ankle, that rush that people gets, it begins to be ingrained in them. Am I being too cynical to say that these corporations are grooming these little ones with the little bit of titillation to the brain, even at a young age to keep them coming back. So you're not off at all, and let me explain a little bit in the things you were saying just to expand a little bit more. So data is the new oil, data on what you like, where you click, what things you enjoy, is valuable information, extremely valuable. But why? Why? That's because I can continue algorithmically, I can continue to serve you content that keeps you coming back, every twitch, every wiggle, every pause, every video, every click that I like this or that, tells an algorithm what you like, what I like. Therefore I have a feed, my YouTube would look different than yours, because it's crafted itself, or if I had tick-tock and you had tick-tock it would look very different, because it's crafted itself into the most addictive version. Wow. Now when it comes to our little kids, I think there's some truth to that in terms of the content, but now we're talking about neurology, right? So neurologically, we are driven by a lot of different motivations, okay? Sure. There's a neurotransmitter that we all have that many people are familiar with called dopamine. Absolutely. Dopamine is this motivator towards something. There are things that cause us to have fast dopamine, sort of quick, versus longer things more executive function, little bits over time. I'm building a tree house, I get little rewards, and it feels good, little bits over time. That's not the goal of tech companies. It's about fast, it's about seven seconds of entertainment, it's about, let me get you hooked in. That's now... Sure, it's like... It's actual snagficing. That's right, little hook, get them in, because if I can give you that little hit dopamine every little while, you're going to keep coming back. So that's, in addition to what we were talking about earlier, you know, with young kids and what they might see, the erosion of human attention, the inability of young people to sit still. When you hand them that iPad, they're constantly being entertained. I talked to really elementary school teachers all the time, where they'll observe a child being dropped off at preschool, and they've been watching an iPad during that time in the car, and the parent is rustling it out of their hand, and they're in tears, right? Why? Because this thing is entertaining. It's not the kid's fault. No. Neurologically, they're like, I want that, and then you send them into school, and they can't sit still. Why would they? They don't like it. They don't like it. Everything in school is boring, compared to a YouTube short, or the entertaining videos and the cartoons like Cocoa Mel and the very fast, high-color, high-paced, that's so detrimental to young brains, that you're basically grooming them to need constant entertainment. That's just not the way the world works. Nothing in life that is of any meaning is that way, right? I mean... They still know that I am God. Boy, there's something there, right? There's something there. There's something there. There's something there. So, it could be said this way, Satan is at work with whatever tools he can use. As usual, biblically, we know always going after the youngest. We know that. That I want to make sure I implement everything and anything into your life so that you've never learned how to wait on anything, because if you do wait, you may find out that there is a God. You may. And I cannot afford that. Yep. So, I'm going to keep bells and whistles and firecrackers and alarms going off in your brain so that you're constantly distracted so that you can never pause to think a divine thought. And all the while, in terms of parents, right? Parents want their kids to be happy. We all do. All the while, we've been deceived to think that our kid is happy. Right. Wow. They look happy. They're content. You and I both know that happiness is not bad, but our objective as parents is not to create happy children. That's right. Right. We need children who, you know, understand a little bit of hardship that they understand. They actually know how to suffer. They do. It's not a bad thing. I know this sounds like piracy. It's not a bad thing for your kids to learn how to suffer, suffer through chores, suffer through sweat or suffer through cold or whatever the situation. You'll make it. You're not going to break. People think, you know, you can't do that anymore. Oh, man. It's so funny that you said chores. There's a Harvard study that's been going on for, I don't know, 70, 80, 90 years. And one of the markers that they looked at over the decades, one of the markers that indicates success as an adult is chores as a child. I believe it. Right? Yes. That little bit of effort that you work toward a goal. You feel a part of a family that needs you because you're contributing. There's something to that. It's so true. I work with a, there's a woman, her name is Melissa Griffin. She's known as the HR mom because she helps families sort of create systems. One of the number one things she does with families who are just struggling with kind of chaos and uncertainty is she gets them on a system of chores. Giving kids chores. Yeah. Because it creates so much just stability and it teaches kids that sort of effort toward a goal. Wow. That YouTube doesn't teach. That screens don't teach at all. Wow. So it's funny that you said that because that is true. Yeah. And research proves it. What are some of the things with the time that we have? What are some of the things that parents need to know that they don't know? How about this? What are some of the things that parents need to know that they don't want to know? Well, there are a lot of things that I think parents can do. A lot of parents feel overwhelmed. Yes. They don't know where to begin. They don't understand it. And I understand that. But I want every parent who's watching this to know that you are uniquely anointed to lead your kids, even in technology, even in technology, right? There are both the technical and relational tools that we have at our disposal to protect our kids when it comes to digital spaces. Now, technical ones are often the ones that feel the most overwhelmed because I don't know how to set this thing up or what to do on my kids' device, okay, I can help you with that. Relationally though, there are not enough toggles and switches that replace your need to be an intentional parent in the digital age to go after their heart. And so we've, I've, over the years here, have developed five habits that I want present in a home. And that's the book that I've written to cover these five habits. The title of the book is called Five Habits of the Tech Ready Family. Five habits of the Tech Ready Family. The Tech Ready Family publisher is? Zandervin. Zandervin. Yeah, Harper College. Get the book. Get the book, people. Yeah. And with us, if you were to read the habits, it starts with us with modeling the right behaviors. Our children are watching the ways in which we use technology. Research shows number one of the number one ways in which children learn how to use technology themselves is by observing how the adults in their life use technology, little micro things so we can do to maybe show them a better way, funny one. We don't need to take our device into the bathroom all the time. I'll just put a simple one out there, right, show our kids a little bit of that distance from our device. Just like not having your device at the dinner table. Never. Never. Never should it be there. Dinner is sacred. Right. Dinner is sacred. As a dad who's like watching kids grow up so fast, I know I'm going to get to a day where I go, man, I just want another family dinner. So true. Right? You just want that. And I don't want to miss it on a scar. Wow. Yeah, that's a sacred time. Sacred time. So it starts with us. It breaks our hearts. Doesn't it break our hearts to be at a restaurant or some public place where the families together and the kid is locked onto a device. I had something happen and I wanted to share it actually with the entire congregation in a message. I just hope the family wasn't visiting each other that day, but that weekend, Lisa and I had gone out to one of our local favorite restaurants and it's not cheap, but it's not expensive. It's just nice. It's a nice steakhouse. And so we're sitting there with friends and to my, about my two, three o'clock angle, I see dad and I see mom opposite. And I'm going to guess to say that they're probably in their late thirties. Okay. And they have a little girl that's probably about 11, maybe 12 years of age and she's all done up. Yeah. You could tell she got all ready to go out. Got to dinner? Sure. Are both on their devices, the meals come, they're on their devices like this. And the little girl is looking at dad. She's looking, I'm watching this. She's looking at dad. She's looking at mom. She has no device. They do. My heart was so grand. I don't, you wanted to say something. I don't normally do this. I got up and I said, excuse me, first of all, because this guy was, this guy was young and he was muscular big. He could have broke snap me in half. But I used what a lot of us can use, not me, not you, but I can. I used my age and gray hair to say, excuse me, I'm old enough to be your dad and her grandpa. Yeah. Since you guys have sat down, both of you have been on your devices and she's been looking at the two of you like you guys are her hero. Yeah. Nearly for, for over an half an hour, you've not even recognized her. She's looked at the true, she looked at the menu both ways and I watched her turn the menu upside down. And I said, I just want to tell you, my kids are old and gone now. You need to really, really give her all the time in the world right now. And the dad went, whoa, really, he received it. Completely received it. Praise God. And he said it down and I told them, thank you, I just had to share that. I said, if I left this place, I, the three of you, it would have been on my heart and money. That's right. And she just go, she, the mom said, thank you. Here's the killer. The little girl looked at me like I had just written in on a white horse with a white hat. She smiled. Yeah. She looked, I called her princess. Oh, yeah. That said, what a reverse. Here's the mom and dad on their devices. Right. And she was starving to death right in front of them. She's starving for their attention. Longing for that gaze. Longing for it. Oh. I'm so glad you felt the nudge to do that and that God prepared, right? Right. But that will be a moment that they will remember. Like that, that exchange with you, if he's any kind of dad, is going to orient his behavior in front of his daughter for the rest of their relationship. Yeah. I mean, 20 years from now. Yeah. He's going to give her my attention. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I guarantee it. Yeah. So that's fabulous. Yeah. Yeah. So it starts, it starts with us. The habit that comes after that is to pursue authentic connection and we do that through constant conversation. What does it look like? That looks like building digital trust, conversation, step by step, chat by chat. Two ways to build digital trust, number one, don't freak out, don't freak out. This is a big one. This is a big one. If we're going to, as parents, make the choice to give our children these devices. And these are supercomputers. Make no mistake. These devices are ridiculously intelligent, if we're going to, I heard more, with the recent moon line. That's right. That the, the iPhone, it has more technology power than the first Saturn V rocket that took the 1969. That's right. Astronauts to, to the moon. The phone has more than that spaceship head. That's right. So the statistic that I've used often is the iPhone in our pocket right now could land a Apollo 13 on the moon. Yes. A hundred and twenty million times simultaneously. What? Right. So you could fit NASA times exponential into, so this, let's not forget that's what we're giving them. Where I'm going with that is if we're going to make a choice as parents to put that kind of power in their pocket. Right. Think of the 14 year old version of you. Think of the 14 year old version of me. The choices that I would have made. The mistakes and the things that would have done. We as parents have to realize that they will make a mistake eventually. They will click on something, say something, snap on, do something we don't like on the device. That's not the variable. As to the variable is how are we going to respond because that sends just a shock wave of emotion their way. That's right. Our anger as parents has never compelled our children to become a better version of themselves. Never. It won't. It's not a motivator. We have to decide right now as parents that if we're going to put that thing in their pocket, which puts them in harm's way, that we're going to be their safe place when they need us. No matter what. Right. So just one simple of a number of examples that we give of what does it look like to pursue authentic connection. It's not in a moment rupturing that relationship with them when they are the ones who need us in that moment to be their calm, their safe, their place where they can go. Yeah. Wow. So on the relational side, those are just, those are the things we've got to get right as a foundation before we worry about what router do we put in the house, what software do we put on the phone and what toggles. Because these are the things that whether they're four or 14 are going to draw them back to us against technologies that desperately want a connection with them, with them. So what are, and again, happily, I say, I speak with some ignorance on this, but you know, you hear the news. You talk to young people. There's some of the big things right now that are very dangerous threats to kids. Now, so let's fast forward, you're, you're now 14, 15, 16, 17 years of age. There's games that are out there. Like for recently, there's been a lot of news, CNN, Fox, everybody is reporting on, I think a congressional investigation, is it, is it roadblocks? Roadblocks. Roadblocks. Roadblocks. Roadblocks. What is this thing? Why, why congressional investigation or what's, what's happening? So roadblocks is the most popular gaming platform for young kids. So I think elementary, kind of early junior high, roadblocks is used by about 120 million people every since the nation. That's a country. Yeah, that's three times the size of Tokyo. I mean, this is a massive, right? Roadblocks has about 40 million of its users or under age 13. It's, and the thing that parents have to understand about roadblocks, when you hear roadblocks, you think of one thing, it's a game. Roadblocks is a universe. Roadblocks is the name of a universe that includes millions of games that are created by normal kids and teens and young adults. So there's millions of games inside of roadblocks, right? So it's not like, you know, I was a kid, we played a game, you called it something. It was missile command. It was Pac-Man. Yeah. It was Space Invaders. And it was one game. Right. Roadblocks, think of a universe that includes millions of games inside of it, and that's what you're dropping your child into. So if I have this clear before you continue. Yeah. If I go into roadblocks, it opens up, I have access, there's no more vetting. Once I'm in, I can go to a million games. Once you're in, based on the age that you type in, you're given access to- So I could type in 13. You could type in 13. Now just in December, they put in age verification technology that will try to scan your face in order to determine if you can chat. Okay. Good. Yeah. But now I'm giving away my identity and data, my face is how you get into the bank or whatever. I know. I know. Roadblocks is being investigated by a number of different entities. You have AGs that have gone after them. They're being sued by a number of states, all kinds of inquiries because time and time again, you have predators reaching out to kids through roadblocks. That's just a prime place to find a child just to interact and just to hang out because it's a lot of fun. If you were inside of it, you go, this looks like a lot of fun. If you're eight or nine, it is a ton of fun. You're with millions of other people in these games and you can chat with them and talk to each other. Now, and this is the part the parents have got to get right. Can you turn some of those features off? Yeah, but not enough parents to do that. So now you've dropped your child into a universe. And like you said a moment ago, that universe has got millions of games. So you may turn off these filters for this, but you don't know what's over here. I just read an article last night before I came over here about games. And this is a thing because you have so many people building games inside of roadblocks. There are games in there that have been created to simulate certain school shootings that have happened here in the United States where you could go in and simulate. No. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's led to one of these inquiries by Congress because they found, they found these games got through whatever vetting process, roadblocks, claims they have. And this is the thing, they can put all the controls and moderation in place. There is no way on earth you can control that much content all of the time and that many people. That's the danger of a free society, is it supposed to be responsible? It is. When we lose our responsibility and wisdom, then anything goes. If I could snap my fingers and erase one game from childhood, really childhood, it would be roadblocks. It's the number one spot that I don't want parents letting their kids go into. What are some of the other names that are out there, Gamewise? What's, what's, what's, well, the big three that most parents have kids want to play are roadblocks, Minecraft and Fortnite. Those are the, those are the big three. Roadblocks is more often with younger kids. Minecraft is pretty unique because you've got four year olds and I think 40 year olds that sometimes like to be in Minecraft, but Minecraft actually has ways in which you can use it in a fairly safe way because you can put walls, you can just use it locally and build things within the game, not connected with millions of other people. One of my children actually for a period of time enjoyed playing just because she could build and it was fun to sort of build things digitally. And then there's Fortnite which, it's been around a while and not quite as popular as it used to be, but the thing with Fortnite is it draws you in for this chunk of time. The thing I tell parents is whenever you say yes to Fortnite, you say yes to some level of family friction because you're in the middle of a multi-minute match and if you're a mom who needs your son or daughter in that moment, they're not going to put the game down. So a yes to Fortnite is always a yes to friction. Just know that going in. So these are the some some of the most parents don't even know to think that way. That's actually so simple. It is. It's not that they're seeing pornographic content, even predators. It's just you are going to create tension and friction in the relationship. I just think it's unnecessary. Unless you put pretty strict parameters out there to say as I have with one of my children who has a friend who lives across the town who enjoyed Fortnite. So the way we said yes to Fortnite in my house was with various parameters. It has to be in my office on the couch, never with headphones on a computer, not a mobile device. So I hear everything going on and in fact, I speak into the game or once while just so that my son's friend knows I'm listening. Oh, wow. So he knows dads there. And my son knows that when it's time, it's time. This is these are the things that the yes came with. And I just want parents to be that open and honest with me. You know, parents, at least in California, parents should not be so surprised at what you just said because during the COVID era, kids were at home doing school online with teachers. Same in Michigan. Parents were listening here and they heard the shenanigans that these kids are being taught. Yeah. And the postpartum of COVID in California was an explosion of private school enrollment and homeschooling exploded since COVID in California because they found out meaning they were listening. Yeah. They were listening. So that's wise, really wise. So some of the things, not too far from now, you're going to be out speaking to several thousand people on this very topic. I have to ask you something because I don't know it. I've heard about it on the news. I watched a, do you ever watch Sean Ryan? I do his podcast. Yeah. Sean Ryan had some, you goes after things, doesn't he? Yeah, I appreciate him. I appreciate him a lot. And he had somebody on, I can't remember his name, I said to say, but they were talking about some of these games and Sean Ryan was shocked. You know, here's a former Navy SEAL, you know, it's been, had a pretty rough life. He recently came to Christ. He was completely blown away and one of these things was like seven, four, six, or seven, six, four. Seven, six. Okay. So why the numbers, seven, six, four, and what is it that caused Sean Ryan and a lot of others and his expert host to say, this is really bad. It's, it's horrific. Okay. So the number comes from the following, a 15 year old high school drop, drop out, started in online community. He's from Texas and the zip code where he lives is seven, six, four, oh, one. So this group of extremely angry young men earned the label seven, six, four, okay. And it proliferates to this day, although he, Bradley Chance Keaton had, I think, his name has now been put in prison for, how old is he? He was 15 at the time, so he's probably in his 20s now, but he was convicted of child sexual abuse material and trading it so he has an 80 year prison sentence. But the group continues on because technology allows that to happen and it is a network and international network of what they call nihilistic, violent extremists. So this is now, every word you just said are nasty words. And this is like a terrorist organization as classified by the FBI now, realistic, violent extremists. In February, just this past year, the FBI put out a note about this to parents to warn them, especially for young girls who are the primary target. So those that are carrying it out are all young men and they stay in touch with each other through apps like Discord and Telegram, which are sort of private communication channels. A lot of parents don't know anything about Discord. They should. It's the social media platform that flies totally under the radar. I've never heard of it. Yeah. Telegram, you've heard of. Telegram, you've heard of Discord. A lot of parents have it and they should. A lot of gamers and others hang out there. Anyway, those are the two places where members of this 764 community often communicate, but they target vulnerable young people. And you've probably heard the term sexual exploitation, right? Or you're using explicit contents. Maybe you entice a child to send something they shouldn't and then you convince them to send more and more. This is a whole different category. This is sadistic exploitation. And it goes through the door of sexual exploitation. So you might convince a child to send something they shouldn't after you've talked to them. Roblox is actually one of the doors through which they develop a relationship. Wow. Right? And then you get them to maybe send something. They send them to an app. And something that's questionable, dark. That's right. And then if I remember right, because now you're reminding them that podcast. Yep. The conversation, yep. They wind up befriending, there's a couple of guys on the Sean Ryan show where the expert is playing a replaying where a couple of these guys are telling this 15 year old girl to do a, you know, take off her top or whatever it is. And the dad walks in. I don't know if you saw that episode. The father walks in. You can see it on camera. And the, the two assailants who are online on the other side, they tell the dad to get out of the, to get out of her bedroom and the father, and the father kind of stammeres around. Doesn't know what to do. And Sean Ryan gets up, he almost loses it. But here you are. Oh my gosh. I, you're making me now remember that broadcast. I wish I knew the name. I would tell all of you to go look. Right. So this is a very colorful language on the Sean's broadcast, but brilliant content. And wow. Yeah. You're right. They, they, the blackmail you. That's right. They'll, they'll go through that door of getting something they can use to explore. But then it's what they are convincing these young people to do who are horrified. They're, they're terrified, right? And that's where the statistic comes in. You are talking about cruelty to animals. Kill your dog. Or else we're going to release this. Or we're going to release this. I put out this list of things to look for, look for unexplained harm to other siblings in the house. Right? Well, tea to animals, all these things, I'm sure that we're covered in the podcast. Right, bruises and marks on a child that say, you know, cut yourself. Cutting. Do these things. Cuttings. It's all about these just horrific acts. And it's just this appetite for chaos, nealism, right? Appetite for just chaos and destruction and violence. Now, the government knows about this. I mean, is it, are we just not in that kind of a world? Are we not able to just blow that seven, four, six thing up? Well, you're talking about a dispersed network. It's not everywhere, right? Gosh. You're the cover of IP addresses that you don't know. Gosh, what a way to take over a country in a way is use that kind of avenue, but man. So that's where the number comes from. That's what it is and it's not to be taken lightly. These digital spaces where kids can interact with others. Chris, how would, how would parents, they just, they just heard you say that, yeah. And now you got their attention. How would they find, how would they go check their kids' device to see if they're there, if they're using it? Well, first, we need to limit the number of places where children are interacting with others. We just need to limit the number of doorways that kids have access to even have contact with these kinds of individuals. So we keep talking and it's appropriate because it's popular. Roblox, for example, should have the chat turned off. You can play Roblox without chat, but you have to go in and actually turn it off. Our website explains how parents can do that at Protect Young Eyes Dexons. Go to the app reviews, go to alphabetically down to Roblox, turn off the chat, right? If they have an iPhone or an Android device, I believe all parents should control what apps they're downloading. You can set up the control so that you approve the apps. They don't just have willy-nilly access to millions of different applications that can be downloaded. They give them access to all of these horrible places. So we need to be controlling the doorways by controlling the apps that they download. Real simple steps that parents can take just to limit the risk that they might get in. And at the end of the day, in my time in youth ministry, something that's almost always been true if a child was going to get into trouble on a device, there are almost three things that are almost always present. We call it the toxic trio. Bedrooms, boredom, and darkness. Bedrooms, boredom, and darkness. Never behind a closed door. I don't care if they're 17, and on the verge of graduation, never behind a closed door. Because as a man who struggled with compulsive use of pornography for years, I can tell you that at 10 o'clock after everyone has gone to bed, there is this way that you believe you can get away with anything at night. Evil permeates the night that you would read in the morning. You go, oh, Lord, thank you. There's mercy again, but dang it. Why did, you know, and there's something about the night. So never behind closed doors, never in that darkness. And make sure that, you know, you're just involved at boredom. That comes from a survey that we did of teenagers who were struggling with pornography and those things were present for those who struggled the most. And so we can control that as parents. Wow. What are some of the success stories that you've heard? Can you give us a testimony where you, maybe you read about or you experienced or you were involved in, where a kid was this way and through hope and through education and love and guidance, they came around. There's two that pop into my head right away. One that's maybe to encourage the parents who feel like they have to, they have to give their kids access. So I received a message through our website years ago from a 19 year old college student. I'll just use the name Emma for anonymity. And Emma said, you know what? My parents went to one of your presentations years ago and they decided not to give me access to social media, not to give me a smartphone like all my friends had. And I am so thankful that they did. Well, she actually became a board member of mine. I'm a nonprofit because I was so encouraged by her testimony and she was so thankful and she went down a path of helping kids because who were struggling and went into teaching because of the way that she was raised. And I hear that over and over again. They hate you right now. I was just going to say, it's their job almost to not like the decisions we make. But everybody has fun and they're going to think I'm weird. I know. But she was still thankful that they had made that decision. I had another mom and I want to say this to parents who might find that their children are struggling. And I had a mom who reached out who had discovered that her son had been sneaking a device at night. It had been watching porn hub late at night. This was an 11 year old boy. And I tell this story. 11 year old? Yeah, I tell the story in my book. And she was crushed. She didn't know what to do. She felt horrible as a mom. And she said something to me that really struck me. She said, every time I look at him, I feel like he's broken. And I just felt this prompted. I said to her, I don't remember her name exactly. I said to her, I want you to remember this. He's still your amazing son. Yeah. He's still your amazing son. That act doesn't shake. Doesn't define who he is. He was born a beautiful, created son of God. He still is today. That doesn't change who he is. And so she found help for him. And that one sentence, she broke into tears on the phone. Like one sentence just totally changed her perspective so that she could approach him with hope and forgiveness and you're still mine. And that's all my parents said, oh, then in the midst of a problem, our kids need to know the answer to two questions almost immediately if you discover they're done something wrong. Number one, am I going to be OK? And number two, are you still OK with me? Wow. Yeah. And they may not ask those, but they're wondering what the answer to these questions are. Exactly. So we've got to know before. They're feeling there's feelings. And our face may answer them before we say a word. And so I need parents, especially in the digital age, where the probability of a child making a choice that we don't like has gone up exponentially. We decide right now, before that happens, that we're going to approach them in that way. In the same way, we hope Christ, we know, meets us in our mess with that kind of love. We're going to meet them in the same way. And parents need to understand that they need to have a healthy, beautiful sense of righteous indignation, not against that little boy or that little girl. Absolutely. Against the one who rarely ever gets the blame for what he's due for, how many times do we hear people say, why did God do this to me? Or why does God allow this to happen when in reality, Jesus said, I've come to give you life. The devil has come to rob you, kill you, and to destroy you. That's right. And so we need to realize that my little boy or my little girl did not turn into this and is not a reprobate animal. But the spiritual power is behind the attack upon their life. Is ruthless, plain for keeps, and more than anything, is to get this education that you offer. But for those who are watching right now, they may not have the hope and the protection and the assurance that you and I enjoy. And that is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that a Christian home, a real Christian home, not a Sunday Christian home, a real Christian home. There's recovery, there's reconciliation, there's forgiveness, there's space for repentance. And the enemy that engineers these evils to destroy our children, the enemy winds up being defeated. What the enemy meant for evil, God will turn around for good, parents need to know. And that's the mission that you're in. Tell us more about protecting young eyes. How long has it been going? And what do you offer our viewers right now? Well, I just, I love the way you set that up. I mean, I think you intended to do this. But that is what I represent. Protect young eyes is what I see God turning my misery into ministry. That's a quote from Pastor Jacob Iran. So he says, it's beautiful when God does that. And that, which the enemy intended to destroy me, that experience with addiction. So protect young eyes is my attempt for all the parents that are watching this to help them not allow their son or daughter to turn into the 12-year-old version of me. Wow. And that comes through prayer, but also practical protections. Of course, we pray for the hearts and souls of our children. But if we don't do practical, getting to get up, we're still going to have problems. We're still going to have problems. That's right. And so we try to dismantle some of those complexities for parents. So go to the website, protect young eyes.com. You will find, I've been accused of giving away way too much guilty. You go there, you find every device that you're having your home, how to set it up step-by-step, how all the apps work step-by-step just to understand them, including a lot on artificial intelligence related to Chad G.P.T. and AI Companions and things we can have a whole other podcast, conversation about all free, un-gated, and available on our website. That's sort of like the level one. If you need level two help, I have a small digital coaching community. Think of like Geek Squad, like support. If you don't know how to certain things on your router or how to have a conversation about this or that with your kids, Abby from my team manages, she's my lead there in this coaching community called The Table, coincidentally. We want parents to come to the table to have these conversations. And that's also there. And then the live presentations that my team does all over the country. Every school year, we do three to 400 presentations all over and we love coming to speak to kids, to teach them so they know what tools that are available to them but also to the courage, yeah. In fact, speaking to the youth group here at Calvary and so we know that kids need to have information so they're empowered when mom and dad aren't there. And so we do these kind of conversations all the time. So that's the business. You're doing this out of love and commitment. Have you gotten pushed back from those who do it out of profit and manipulation? Have you gotten like threats? Do people want to shut you guys down for what you do? Because you're bad for business when it comes to the roadblocks kind of a world. Yeah, I mean, wow. Well, thankfully, we live in a time now. I'd say 10 years ago, I was on a pretty sparsely populated island. There weren't many people in 2015 who were saying don't give your kids smartphones and don't give your kids social media. Praise God, there are a lot more huts on this island now. I mean, thanks to the work Jonathan Height in the book that he wrote the anxious generation that I'm sure many people who will watch this have read fabulous. To be honest, Pastor, that's a book the church should have written. I'm thankful that I'm thankful that John did and I know him. He's an amazing, amazing man. Even though we come from different world views, we can agree on the spot that human beings matter and we've had a lot of conversations about that. That's awesome. And because of that, there are more and more like protect young eyes out there. And that's the thing, parents, I love you. But the days of ignorance are over. That's true. There's enough resources out there. We've got no excuses. We've got to do our work. I wish it weren't true. But if we're going to choose to have children today, part of the gig of parenthood is to understand the digital spaces where they can visit, which is why I want to try to make that job easier because I know it's overweld. So come to us. We'll try to dismantle some of the things that feel overwhelming. I'm told over and over again, because I don't have a tech background. I'm a CPA who went into youth ministry who now is working in a field and never expected to be working in. And so we tend to be able to explain things in a way that average moms and dads can understand. And we love that. Well, so the website, again, protectYoungEyes.com. And the book, Five Habits of the Tech Ready Family. Where do they get that? At the website or Amazon or what? Anywhere they buy books. It is available for pre-order depending on when you watch this. It will be officially published on June 16th. But it can be pre-order now. In fact, let me do a plug for you. OK, all right. Hey, everybody, listen up, I had to learn this. Chris mentioned the word presale. The world of publishing, believe it or not, much of the success of his book will be determined in the opening weeks of presale. Publishers do this. How does the book do in presale? If it does well in presale, then they will write it. They will categorize it. A book can even become a bestseller in the genre or in the category of while it's still presale. And then once it gets out, it just takes off like a rocket. So friends, family, listen, get his book now on presale and buy it. And you'll be the first one to get it. The publishers will ship it to you. But presale really matters. We've got to get this word out. And we're going to do everything we can to see what we can get from you. This is news to him. I haven't told him about this yet. But I'm wondering what of your video content that we might be able to get together with you and air on the real life network? So hundreds of thousands of people can sit down any given day to watch all that because we want you to succeed because the more that you succeed, the safer our kids are. And the more equipped parents will be. And so, Chris McKenna, we are so grateful for you. I'm blown away. And thank you for this mantle of warfare that you've taken on. So, you're a blessing to us. God bless you, my friend. Likewise, thank you. Thanks a lot. This Jack Hibbs podcast, as well as all the broadcasts out reach opportunities, our listeners supported. 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