I Almost Quit

00:00 - Speaker 1 Real Life presents the Jack Hibbs Podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture. 00:09 - Speaker 2 Hey everybody, you're not gonna wanna miss this podcast. In fact, you're gonna wanna share it with other people, and here's the reason why. Do you need encouragement? Have you become cast down? Do you feel like giving up? Do you feel like quitting? Well, it's pretty native to anyone who's accomplishing something, and so we have a very, very special program today. You're going to be blessed to hear from Shane and Morgan Idleman and this excellent book. You'll be blessed to find out what you are about to hear. Stay tuned. 00:42 - Speaker 1 You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to jackhibbs.com/podcast Today. If this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five-star ratings. To us that's like saying amen or yes. Then that rating will encourage others to listen Now open your hearts to what God's Word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. 01:11 - Speaker 2 Gosh. You guys, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us, and, Morgan, it's great to have you here. So let's dive in to what God has been speaking to you and the new book. I need to know, we need to know the genesis of it. Where does it come from? Because I love the title. I mean who, in any area of life, be it ministry, be it just life, school, student, parent, how many times have we quit in our hearts and in our minds, and some have completely quit? 01:43 - Speaker 3 Where does this come from Well, especially as a pastor. So many people can relate to it, because what pastor hasn't thought about quitting? 01:51 - Speaker 2 Because it's a pretty stressful job with the ups, the downs, I mean you cause some of your issues, but there's also a lot of discouragement, critical spirit especially if you're bold. 02:04 - Speaker 3 Especially if you're bold yeah, especially if you're bold. You get a lot more criticism. And it just started, probably a few years ago. I'd never planned on writing the book. Anytime I write a book, it has to be something in my heart that God's doing Cause. It's a, it's a process, and I don't want to, I don't want to touch if God's not in it. So, going through this difficult season, I don't know how much to get into. But discouragement, yeah, get in, and then that turns into you become critical. 02:30 - Speaker 2 That's right. 02:30 - Speaker 3 You know I'm discouraged, I'm critical. All these things I thought were going to happen aren't really happening. And then you throw in as I'm getting older, as you know, the health issues start to play a role now that I didn't have when I was younger I resemble that remark and we had some California. How many people moved from your church? Oh, from our church, I mean. We lost elders and deacons and friends and family, and it was just a constant getting kit with this people moving, which that in and of itself is to be expected. But then you throw in just maybe some good friendships where they turn on, you gossips. 03:15 - Speaker 2 I guess we should make it clear People moving what we mean by that is people moving out of state, fleeing for their lives because of this government, exactly, and it's not that just people move to get away from, from the beaches and the mountains. 03:28 - Speaker 3 Oh yeah, I know People have a hard time. 03:31 - Speaker 2 We watched people leave. We watched people depart from here as though, as though it was some form of an exodus that they didn't want to participate in. They were. They were in a sense weeping, and some were weeping We've got to go because the company that we work for can't take it in California anymore and they're moving to fill in the blank, or they—and I think this is another—we don't need to get it now. 03:54 But there's another big wave, if California government does the wrong thing again, and that is there's going to be another mass exodus of parents with their children, with some of the things that are up there in Sacramento. That's basically government sanctioned molestation by strangers. I mean, people think that's extreme. No, you just wait till we unpack that. It's huge. That's for a later day, but that affects your heart as a pastor. For this reason, I don't mind them leaving. But when I find out and I ask them where are you going? Oh, we're going to XYZ city. Have you found a church there? No, I'm sure we'll find one, and you can't say that anymore. No, actually, you probably won't, because there's so few Bible. You'll find a church, but you might not find a Bible in that church. 04:44 - Speaker 4 We've had several calling back. 04:47 - Speaker 3 Well, that's the number one question. Do you know of a good Bible church in this area? Not that there aren't, but the church needs to be the hub Absolutely, and so I changed my attitude on that too. I was a little too critical at first. You know, like guys, california's worth fighting for. 05:04 - Speaker 2 And she goes. We've talked about this, we believe that. 05:06 - Speaker 3 But you know we're kind of stuck. So so anyway, discouragement, health issues, I mean I won't. There's a lot of other issues where it just was beating I didn't feel like preaching. When a preacher doesn't feel like preaching, I don't want to go to church on Wednesdays. It was hard to go on Sundays, and but something dynamic took place when I would prepare my heart and I'd say Lord, even even if I don't feel like it, and some those were some of the best sermons, because the word of God comes alive and you can tell when, the when, the Holy Spirit is just empowering that message. And then I leave and go home and here comes this, this wanting to quit. You know, I finally told my kids too, like I don't really want to do this anymore, and it was a. You know there's crying and there's like-. 05:50 - Speaker 2 I can't believe how much you're describing me and I'm not joking. Yeah, how often. 05:54 - Speaker 3 I Well, most pastors finally opened up to me. They don't want to write the. You know they don't want to you do know that we're doing a podcast right now, Shane? 06:01 - Speaker 2 Yes, I mean, people are going to know this. Yes, but I'm with you. 06:07 - Speaker 3 I mean, I can't articulate enough. You wrote your resignation in your head a few times. 06:11 - Speaker 2 I can tell you I've physically written my resignation. Over the last 35 years I've written it six times. 06:16 - Speaker 3 Wow, yeah, and so we know. But you know you can't quit because God called you, that's right, that's the only anchor, that's the only reason I knew I couldn't do it. But you, you play with those ideas. I even thought about running for governor and I'm like, yeah, maybe that was God talking to you. I actually I texted you. I think you didn't get it. 06:36 But, like Jim Garlow, rob McCoy, even our Senator, they're like no, no, no, stay in your wheelhouse. You don't even I'm like, okay, but you start, you start to think other things. My brother's got a great business in Idaho, in the Treasure Valley, there, by your Calvary Chapel. That's right. And uh, you know, there's great opportunities where I can, you know, but you, you, it's the enemy plants these, these thoughts in your mind and if you don't take those thoughts captive and say, lord, you've called me to do this. So one day I just repented I mean to be frank and I said, lord, I'm doing this, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fight this discouragement, I'm gonna a lot of it too, with my health. 07:15 For me, I turned to food and so I was getting gaining weight. Blood pressure was high, signs of prediabetes, metabolic syndrome, all these things. I'm in health and fitness, so I know about it. So this was hitting me Doctors, you know blood pressure is getting high and this and so. But I finally repented and the joy came back and the book came from that, like okay, now I can help people. That's why the subtitle is my Journey Through the Landmines of Ministry and Navigating those Lands. And then had her write a chapter, of course, because she went through the whole process as well, she almost quit too. 07:52 - Speaker 2 Okay. Now, that just terrifies me because if you remember in the scriptures where, for example, moses would say to God I can't stand these people. I want you to either kill them or kill me. I can't put up with them anymore. And then God talks Moses off the ledge. And then the next day God says Moses, get out of the way, I'm going to kill all of them. They drive me crazy. And then Moses says now God, what about your great name? So, thank God, they didn't agree on the same day. That said, I can tell you that Lisa and I, thank God, have never agreed on the same day about that type of stuff. And that's just the goodness of God balancing us, because how many times have you gone home to hear her counsel to say, yeah, guess what? You don't have the permission to quit. 08:40 - Speaker 3 Yeah Well, when we were struggling, you remember, when I was going through this, I'm like I need another sabbatical. You know, it's been like four or five years where I took like four months. I'm like I need another one, and she's like, no, you don't, you need to, you need to just get back in there and preach as much as possible, be there as much as possible, and that was the best advice to you know, to just absolutely because you have to. Some of these struggles you have to fight through. That's how perseverance is developed, that's how now there's a boldness that came back that I had with COVID. When we talked during COVID, we opened our churches the same day, and that boldness is back, that fortitude, that strength, that Lord has called me to do this, and so I think I had to go through that season, as did she, to be able to strengthen my faith and to help strengthen the faith of others. It was so powerful that I finally opened up. 09:30 Was it April on a Sunday? Begin crying, sometimes explaining the books coming out. You guys need to know this because you know, hey, I'm like people are surprised, but that started. You could hear the, the weeping throughout the congregation right the next Sunday the first service, the altar's full like completely we didn't. I didn't even go up to preach. At the second, we just continued in worship for another hour and a half People coming forward. It was just that's revival. 10:03 - Speaker 2 I was just going to say that's the opening throw of revival. 10:05 - Speaker 3 Absolutely, we would have never experienced that, but it came through so much brokenness and transparency and that's why I think pastors need to get back to you know, we've got one side, the woke, cowardly, just you know, political correct. But then we have the other side. You know suit and tie, master's degree in divinity, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's just this pride and I don't struggle through anything. But we've got to find that brokenness and humility and allow the Spirit of God to come upon you and preach from that reservoir of time spent with Him. That's where powerful sermons come from. They don't come from just preparation, they come from the prayer closet. 10:45 - Speaker 2 I just, Shane, I just love what you're saying because, in fact, I was recently asked this and what you're saying is that the struggles of ministry are not only difficult but they're necessary. And if we're honest with our scripture reading but they're necessary. And if we're honest with our scripture reading we see Paul the apostle being the most transparent, honest, powerful, weak, right, effective, but not seeing it Minister. I view it this way. I see Paul as being our New Testament example of ministry. Of course, Jesus encompasses all, from Genesis to Revelation. 11:29 Having said that, you look at Paul's life and then, in the Old Testament, I look at David so transparent, so open that he shares the deepest, darkest thoughts and stuff of his life while at the same time having incredible power. And how many times did we read in scripture where David wanted to give up and he strengthened himself in the Lord? Or, in one case, all of the all of his mighty men of valor? I think it was Ziklag. It was such a devastation that they turned on him and they wanted to kill him and David had nowhere to go, but it says, but to strengthen himself in the Lord and so to keep from quitting. What did you do, or the both of you do to get this book and its title to be what it is. What did God show you to do regarding not quitting. 12:20 - Speaker 3 Well, chime in and then you can add to it, because it was a process, but I had to get to that point because you can stay in the blame game. Oh, I Mean, I don't know about you, but I have a defense attorney within. You know, I'm gonna keep that you can use it. 12:40 And so I said, lord, this is wrong. The people don't. My kid might look at the example I'm being for my, I mean, I might start crying here. You know, when dad comes home, doesn't want to preach anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. It scares them, you know, and I can see it in their eyes. And then what would I tell people? What would I? I know God's calling, and often the greater the calling, the more pain it's gonna produce. No, doubt. 13:12 - Speaker 2 I think that's a fact. 13:13 - Speaker 3 And AW Tozer, before God uses a man greatly, he breaks him or hurts him deeply, absolutely. And so it was just in my journey, another breaking process. And so the turning point was repent and saying Lord, I know this isn't right, I know you've called me to preach. I need that. Fire the spirit back again. God, I need to. But I had again I know this is kind of a sidetrack, but with my food and diet and and I had to that was using comfort food as eating, and so once I disciplined my body again got back into fasting so I went on. This whole thing about revival is a popular word right now. It's not going to come through these great people charging tons of money and let's get loud. It comes through deep brokenness and humility, through the man of God that God calls. He puts his anointing on that man who's been broken by God, and that's where revival is going to come from. And so it revived our church, it revived our ministry, the book that was done in two months, completely done, gosh. 14:11 - Speaker 4 We were on a plane to Florida. That is amazing and it was like I feel like on the plane back from Florida. It was all the concepts were like there, the chapters almost it was, but then to write it took a little bit. 14:25 - Speaker 3 But the whole idea of it was really quick. 14:26 - Speaker 4 And then you opened up about you were going through a lot of struggles too. 14:28 - Speaker 3 You've seen me discouraged. 14:30 - Speaker 4 Yeah, that's rough. That's rough to watch right for any spouse on either side, and so feeling it also for myself, but needing to encourage him and trying to find the balance of, like you said, well, we can't both want to quit on the same day. That's not going to work because we know we're not quitting. So, lord, strengthen me to be a support to him, while also crumbling a little bit inside myself. It was kind of a bizarre time and a lot of trials. We lost his mom, life changed. There's just a lot, and so, um, I think what helped in a sense helped me, was realizing no one gets a pass. 15:10 You read your. You read the word, and life is hard for everyone. Choose your hard. We're either going to we quit, that's going to be hard. We stay the course, that's going to be hard. So, choose your hard. And really, when we um, you know it might sound a little cliche or or whatever, but like when you're barely holding on, make sure it's to the hem of his garment, amen. So it's like when I was barely holding on, like lord, I feel like maybe I can't even hold on, but you're not going to let go of me and us in this ministry, and you built this. It would make no sense for us to walk away from something that he's gifted, you know. So I, I mean truly I, I don't I don't know if I can even put into words other than but God, I mean, we wouldn't be here if he, if he, didn't hold it together articulating spiritual realities that are must and that they are required in the Christian walk. 15:57 - Speaker 2 It's it's required as disciples and followers to experience this stuff. For some, for some reason maybe it's all kinds of reasons of bad teaching. Modern day, what Westernized Christianity where you know if you're going to follow God, isn't it going to be great, your life's going to be cush and Shane. I love what you said earlier about if God and Tozer. You said it right how Tozer made that so vividly clear that for God to use a man, he must break that man. But I know why. 16:30 - Speaker 3 But humility is so important. I think it's the key ingredient, missing ingredient, because then you don't lash out as much at your congregation. You listen, you have that compassionate heart that broke because God broke you. Now you're more receptive, Now you can help, you can weep with them, you can pray for them. You're not some superstar stepping up in the pulpit. Let me show you how polished this sermon is and and how well, how many thousand, a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. And we've I mean, we've got to be real careful in this day and age we live in, you know. 17:06 - Speaker 2 We live in an age of of what I say is veneer. Yes, it's kind of like the cover of this. I assume this table has got wood somewhere. I don't know for sure because it's covered with what maybe looks like what. I'm not sure if it's wood or not. It's veneer. 17:15 That said a lot of people today. They don't even realize it yet, but they're living a veneer Christianity and what that means is to me is that it's been very, very convenient and safe for them to be believers. They, they go to church and they leave and it's all fine and dandy and everything's great. The money's coming in, kids are doing okay, I think the marriage is fine and all this kind of stuff. And then they think there are you know that somehow they're pleasing God because that's why it's all good. I mean, that's twisted thinking, but it's human. Well, I must be pleasing God because everything's good. That falsehood shocks you because when not a temptation, I'm not interested in temptation. Temptation comes from the enemy and from the world and from my flesh. God has made it very clear we can resist temptation. It all comes down to. Do you love God? Oh, I love God, okay, then resist temptation, fight it. A great challenge for us is trials, temptations from the world, the enemy and the flesh Trials are engineered by God, knowing that he's allowing. 18:20 Yeah, he's he's going to, he's the one that's actually taking this part of your spiritual body and bending it, or even as a, as a rebellious lamb could be, he'll break the back leg to draw that lamb closer to himself. And so I'm not concerned about the temptations, it's me enduring the trials. And then he comes right back and says to us Jack, it's tailor-made for you, this is custom. Well, it doesn't feel custom Right. And then Satan lies to us and says you know, you are the only one going through this. Yes, I mean, he lies to us and tries to isolate us. 18:59 - Speaker 4 And then the beautiful thing of all of that is at the end of it. You realize, had that not happened, I wouldn't have that sweet communion with Him. It's the very thing that I want to run from, push away from, get out of my life. It's the very thing that he uses to bring me closer to Him. I mean that just the breaking is so hard. And even with our kids, like as a mom, I'm sure dad's feel it too, but I don't know if moms feel it even more Like I do not want to see them go through things, and he always reminds me they have to. Like they, if you want them to get to that point with the Lord that you want them to get to, he's going to break them one way or another. I'm like, oh Lord, just be easy, go easy on them. But it's so true. Just looking back at my own life, I'm like that's so true. If, if, if those things hadn't happened, I I wouldn't have that sweet, as sweet communion with him as I do. 19:54 - Speaker 2 And again, that's part of being a married Christian couple is that I think it's because Lisa is the same way. Um, but then you and I we know, because we're coming from the guy's perspective, you're coming from the mom's perspective we're thinking, yeah, you know what? I remember when I thought I could jump off the roof and not break my leg, and then I jumped off the roof and broke both my legs. 20:19 That was the only way for me to learn how to stop jumping off of buildings. And it's like it sounds almost cruel to where. Well, you know, sweetheart, you got to let God. He's going to have to deal with them. And it's like what? Well, what we're trying to articulate is is what, again, tozer said for God to use them, they've got to be broken. 20:41 Our church is no stranger to me making this statement and again, I think I've stolen this from Tozer is that you must come, everybody, please. You must evaluate your life and make sure that you've come to that, what I call first encounter of a crisis of faith. Your faith has got to be tested, or else I'm not sure. If you're a believer, well, let me put it this way you can be a believer, but do you have faith in Jesus Christ? Because Jesus said himself in Matthew that these are they who believe for a while, but they go back into the world when persecution comes. They didn't lose their salvation, they never had it, they just believed because it was convenient. Does your belief, so to speak, drive you over to faith? And the only way faith is going to be born into us is trust? Exactly, we've got to be tested so that we can trust. 21:34 - Speaker 3 You know what the irony is. It was such a special time, 3 am to 6 am, every morning, worship, just seeking the Lord, and there's a interesting verse, at least for me. I wrote it down, I'm I just highlighted it, I meditated and it's, it's that verse. And you know verse just jumps out and it absolutely, and I actually put down the Bible and I began to just, I began to even just cry at that and and and just. 22:03 But it says he set his face like a flint and I'm like that's about the cross, right, of course, calvary. But I'm like, if he did, why not me? Why not? No matter, if this is, if the ministry dies, if it sinks, he must increase. If I'm going to stay here in this spot, no matter. And you just set your face like a flint and there's so much joy that follows, because joy, remember, is not what's happening to you, that's right. Happiness is happening. Joy is an internal love for the Lord, or relationship, no matter. And then Job, of course, though he slay me yet, will I trust him when you get to those spots? Not much can knock you off course, and something we have not touched on yet that we need to is, fortunately, he brought me from pastoring a little church, medium-sized church. Now it's a large church. 22:54 But you also have that how we measure each other Mega, how many followers, how many Instagram, and what school did you go to? What's your budget? I'm like, why do people ask me, what's it have to do with anything? So we've got this concept that bigger is better and so that kind of really in my mind too, like, oh Lord, is there somewhere else? Like, is this all you have? Aren't we supposed to be this massive? But then you realize demographics play, demographics, demographics, demographics, yeah, play a huge role in that. And you know, and, and, but we do, we, we, we measure ourself. 23:31 I came out of the business world I don't know if you knew this, but I was a corporate executive with 24 hour fitness, so I had met multiple fitness centers and, and that's how we rated success by numbers. I had to beat myself every year, 6%, same store growth. So I've got this in, you know, got to build, got to build, got to build, got to build. And God's like no, no, no, you, you may be, maybe, maybe where you're at is where you're going to be for the rest of your life and I'm ready to die there. But if you don't deal with that, you think and I talked to so many pastors with smaller me they're rating success by numbers, where God rates it by faithfulness. Now, granted, god will grow the Chino Hills and the MacArthur's churches and David Jeremiah's, and you know, because there's nothing, there's nothing about the size at all, but we get focused, at least a lot of the. 24:21 They think they're not man. I'm only at a hundred people. I don't know what's going on. What do you? Let me tell you? There's mega churches. I could name names right now. They are so far from God. They're not leading their people to the cross, they've compromised. They're woke. You are in a much better position than that person overseeing 10,000 people. Don't get caught up in the numbers game. 24:41 - Speaker 2 I really appreciate what you're saying and I think this podcast is going to be very beneficial for a lot of reasons, but one of them is I love what you just said. People can relate to that and I don't even know how you. I've never articulated this before, so you're forcing me to do this. The pendulum for me is on the other side, meaning I have. If I'm guilty of complaining to God, it's regarding one string on my guitar and it's this. 25:20 I have resisted church growth. I have from the beginning, when we were a home Bible study from Calvary Chapel, costa Mesa. In those days I literally would, when we had 25 people in the living room. It was so sweet to me and so and I love knowing people's names and I love meeting them and knowing them that I ask them I literally ask them don't tell anyone else about our Monday night. They can go to their other. And it just grew and I have to tell you I did not like it. I had pastors tell me you ought to be freaking out with excitement right now. I thought, well, here's another part where I'm weird and wrong. I'm not seeing this and I feel like I'm. I'm, you know, upsetting God because I I'm not happy about the growth and even to this day, if this church I'm good with this church going down to a hundred people. My point is this though you said it is, I don't care if I preach to 10,000 adults every Sunday. What I care about is will a hundred of them be discipled across the finish line? Because the numbers in ministry numbers can deceive you. 26:45 And we learned that during COVID, when we were open. During COVID, people were flocking to the church and they were literally saying to me hey, I'm really glad you're open. I'm the board member of so-and-so church. I'm not going to name the names. People know the names and so you know. Here I am to serve. And then, two weeks later, the same man comes back and says did I understand you right today when you said I must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? I was shocked. This guy's a board member of a world renowned church, and he was. He had never heard that he had to be born again. 27:25 - Speaker 4 How is? 27:25 - Speaker 2 that. How is that? Because you know what they came from. A church with numbers in the ministry, teaching style was to preserve the numbers and so, knowingly or unknowingly, they watered it down in such a way to preserve the numbers and so, knowingly or unknowingly, they watered it down in such a way to keep the numbers. When I believe that you should deliver God's word in such a way that, with winsomeness, with respect, with love and with honor to the flock, do everything you can to empty the seats of your church, what do I mean? Jesus said this and I believe this with all of my heart. I could, I. This is a hill for me to die on. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice, they follow me. I don't need church growth tactics, I don't need church growth seminars. If I am faithful to give them his word, then he will bring and delete those that are his and not his. 28:21 - Speaker 3 I mean you two just say so many of the same things, yeah well, but I think too that's why Chino Hills I believe in other churches are do grow is because God honors it's. It's not your desire, that's right. God brings that where other pastors, maybe even myself, we were rate. If you're rating it by that, god might keep you where you're at until you deal with that pride issue. Because, um, for me, I had low self-esteem, came from a very angry home, my dad was from the farms of Oklahoma. 28:51 - Speaker 2 Um, my dad was from the farms of South Dakota Really Okay. So I think I'm feeling what you're saying. 28:56 - Speaker 3 And it was boy, you don't cry, you do not cry, you do not cry. And so I don't know. I told my mom she goes. Oh, she passed away during COVID, not of COVID, but that's all, don't get me started. I almost drove to Idaho because they would not let my visit and she's 40 feet away, dying in the emergency room the stupidest time ever in American history by far. So back on track. So I was taught that and I told my mom I don't know if he ever said I love you, he goes. Oh no, I'm sure he did. 29:27 And dad, look at you know, just all-star pitcher, and just never. People can't believe it, probably, but just never, never. Just wanting your dad to appreciate you. And so I think with some of us, like with me, I measured bigger church growth. Okay, I've succeeded God, and you look at God the same way you do your father. And so he really had to do. And I had to get to a point because we're and I love it, it's funny we go back, I'm like I'm, I'm quite comfortable, I love, I don't want more Because there is something nice with you. Know, we're in the rolling hills of Leona Valley, tucked back in these beautiful oak trees Gorgeous. But then you always feel, you know, like Lord, is there more? Did I miss it? Am I not really a pastor? If I'm not, you know, a megachurch, do you think too much? 30:16 - Speaker 4 Yeah, you know a mega church. Do you think you know much? 30:18 - Speaker 3 yeah, overanalyze yeah, yeah, yeah and so. But back to I think how I was raised in that that and that's why criticism hurts me more than it should. I know you don't read your comments ever. No, I do not, that's I'm. I started that. 30:31 - Speaker 2 That really helps I'm gonna be very transparent with you guys is when the young people around me said you need social media. I didn't even know what that was. So it started out. And then the first hour I looked at some things and there were some things that were so honestly stupid and ridiculous that it was so not true and immediately, by God's grace, it hurt me and I had no ability to deal with it because I couldn't call them, I couldn't reach out to them and even if I could, that type of comment there's no winning them back and then wait winning them to what? 31:12 - Speaker 3 And they don't want your answer. They're, they're 24 years old, living in their mom's basement in in Vermont or wherever, and they're, they're, they're critical of you and so that because of a person low self-esteem, I take criticism like that was like wearing on me too. You know, and people that would you know, you get 10 times more criticism, but that the and you're bold, you're a bold pastor in this political climate. Um, and you got it. Just so the criticism weighed on me more than it should. And then you know the numbers game right, rating success by certain things. And so it was a great breaking point. It was a great, and I encourage pastors, submit to the breaking Brace. It repent, repent and say Lord, I want the refreshing of the spirit again. I want those rivers of living water. I don't care, my sermons need to come from the prayer closet. God revive me again and watch what he does. 32:05 - Speaker 2 You know, man, I love that and I know this is a podcast for some other day, but I'm afraid we'll never remember this again. You said it right there where the brokenness, where the brokenness, the brokenness is where true foundations and strength and victory is had. And you might say, Jack, you're insane. You just said brokenness and foundations. That cannot. That's like oxymoronic thinking. No, in Christianity it's exactly how it works. The great foundations are laid by brokenness. Having said that, I remember going to some. It was. 32:41 It was when Mel Gibson was launching the Passion of the Christ and they were hosting it at Settleback Church and Rick Warren, of course that was his church at the time and during that whole presentation, rick Warren said something that I've never forgotten because, honestly, it was so offensive. He said oh, with Easter coming up, everybody, if you just go to pastorcom, you can download my sermons All my sermons are there and you can preach and teach my sermons. It's like $25 a year, pastorcom, and you can preach my sermons and you can think and teach my sermons. It's like $25 a year, pastorcom, and you can preach my sermons and you can think about using those for Easter. I was so offended in that crowd because I had been trained by Chuck Smith, you go hide, you go hide away. And though we were taught to have our stack of great commentaries from preachers of yesteryear. This is how I was brought up and I'm so grateful that you go alone with God. 33:46 My first approach to scripture is reading the Bible of where we're going to be this coming Sunday. You read, you read it, you read it, then you circle keywords, and then I have a notebook and I'm writing things down, and then there's somewhat of a skeleton that begins to be constructed and I, and then God prompts verses oh, this verse for this application and for this point, and it's coming together. And when you have it may be on paper or for the young folks, on their computers, it doesn't matter, you've got all these pages that are out there that it's not until I have my message that God has given me. That's the only way I can be excited about the message. So people will say to me oh my gosh, you're so excited about the message or you're so animated about the message I don't even realize I am until I realize. Well, guess what? I was just given this from the kitchen, as it were, from the Lord, and I can't wait to shout this and I don't consult the commentaries Again. 34:45 I'm taking the Chuck Smith Pastor, chuck Smith models Exactly. I look at the greats that were before us to confirm my theology is correct. But when I go into the sermon, when I go into the message of the pulpit, it is it's. You can hear the plate sizzling on my heart right being served up. But when somebody said, oh, you can, you can just preach my sermon for 25 bucks, I thought is this America? Is this the church today? Because it's not the church. 35:12 - Speaker 3 That's my exact sermon prep, everything you just said. I've got post-it notes, I've got pages. This scripture leaps out like how am I put? And then, when it comes together, it's like you like you're pregnant. 35:22 They'll say sometimes like I have to give birth I say that I have to give birth to. And when you do, you drive home like, oh, that felt so good because you know the spirit of the living God and you're just, you're taking rabbit trails and people are convicted and and we got, our prayer room is full and you got man. 35:37 - Speaker 2 Just the Spirit of God moved because he spoke to you individually and that for me see, now listen, for me that's the kind of stuff that gets me back into the pulpit on Wednesdays and Sundays. That brings me back because you may not feel it. You may not feel it because you've got a thousand different thoughts and feelings and people calling and saying you're a bonehead and whatever is going on. But it's so. It's Jeremiah, it's burning, it's got to get out, and you and I want to suggest this to you. And though you already know this, I'm sure, in the spirit you mentioned, you opened up by saying about how it was so difficult to go to the pulpit and you felt like quitting. And then it's horrible on the way home, because you know we preach our best sermons on the way home. Why didn't? 36:25 - Speaker 1 I say that why did I say that? 36:28 - Speaker 2 But the great thing about what you're saying is obedience is quite possibly the most beautiful form of worship. 36:40 I think that there's out there today it's not the goosebumps, because the song is just the right and the temperature of the sanctuary is just right sheer obedience. You know, people talk, talk to you and I and talk about you and I as though we're somehow some sort of Teflon pastors, because we open the doors to the church during COVID and all this kind of stuff and we get all kinds of oh, you're the pastor that's courageous and I have to stop this. Please stop right there. You don't understand how pathetically weak I am. 37:12 - Speaker 4 Well, I was going to say courage doesn't mean lack of fear. 37:15 - Speaker 2 Exactly. Oh, I love what you just said. 37:18 - Speaker 4 Even in the midst of the fear, but you know where your strength comes from. He said be strong and courageous. Awesome, and so you know. Okay, there might be some trepidation here, but we're going to plow forward. 37:30 - Speaker 2 Listen to this One of the founding fathers of Delta Force, dr Jerry Boykin oh, yeah, yeah said that in this case ministry, and he was talking about military that courage is the management, the proper management of fear. Courage is the proper management of fear. Courage is the proper management of fear. So everyone would say, oh, pastor Shane, I fear so bad, I'm so intimidated, I'm terrified, I feel like quitting. Wait a minute, you want to defeat that this way? Manage it, use it Well. Satan says I stink. You can remind Satan, satan, you did tell me that, but I do know you're a liar, so that's very encouraging to me. You're already defeated. You're already defeated. So I'm going to take that from you and you manage that. So it's not like you and I were, like you know, teflon coated pastors during the COVID era. It was white knuckle, sheer, dry mouth, obedience. 38:40 - Speaker 3 And the craziest time ever. I upset people, no matter what I did. 38:43 - Speaker 2 I got to ask you a question. 38:44 - Speaker 3 That was pretty wild. 38:44 - Speaker 2 I've never asked this of a pastor before. With all that has happened post COVID, would you do COVID again, all over again? 38:55 - Speaker 3 Meaning. 38:56 - Speaker 2 Would you go knowing what you know? Would you, if you could back up and redo it all, the last you know? 39:02 - Speaker 4 I would do it the same way. 39:04 - Speaker 2 Would you do it the same way? Would you? Would you I know exactly Because? 39:09 - Speaker 3 I know what my answer is. Yeah, well, first, if you remember, you texted me like a month during COVID. You said you know when are you thinking of opening? I said I think we agreed on May 31st and I said, hey, that's Pentecost Sunday. 39:27 - Speaker 2 You told me later yeah, oh, later, okay, we were communicating and it was on April 26th that the Lord spoke to my heart from Revelation, chapter three, crystal clear. And then we were texting and I said something about May 31st, and then you later I have the thread you later said you do know that that's Palm Sunday, right, pentecost. 39:42 - Speaker 1 Or Pentecost Sunday and I said I did not know. 39:45 - Speaker 2 And so that your word coming back to me, you know, somebody might say what's the big deal? Who cares? Hey, you weren't there at the moment when you text me back and said, oh my gosh, the Lord impressed upon my heart May 31st and Shane texts me and says it's Pentecost that day. It's like, oh God, you are so amazing to this point. This is beautiful. This is like what John MacArthur said about the pulpit. For the pastor, we are chained to the pulpit. The chains may be velvet, for the pastor, we are chained to the pulpit. The chains may be velvet, but we're chained nonetheless. What a great word With what you had said and what the Lord had impressed upon my heart. So this is the confirmation where here's the beauty of it If somebody tried and they did if somebody tried to talk me out of that day, it was impossible. You mentioned setting your face like Flint. People told me well, what about this other day? 40:38 Because we can open up and we can do this and have flyers and the other thing. Nope, it was this. And the beautiful thing was that, if I would have said okay, we'll do that some other week. 40:59 - Speaker 4 I knew that. 40:59 - Speaker 2 I would have been sinning. It was that crystal clear. I could not. I could not waver. And people I get it, even people close to me you're being stubborn about this, you're being. You have no idea. And it was one of those moments where, lord, I'm not even sure if I agree with it, but I'm going to follow you and I love it. So my answer is I wouldn't change a thing. 41:20 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I was going to say I would actually be more. That's right, you know. Well, let's do, let's. You know, let's pass out masks in case they want. Let's. This is bold. I'm not putting up with any of this shenanigans. 41:32 - Speaker 2 We certainly have. 41:33 - Speaker 3 But you know, no matter what you did, you're upsetting people. You've got the. You know the mask. There's not mask. Why are you open? Why aren't you open? And we were called, like you probably were, the rebellious church. Oh yeah, and I talked to pastors. I love you. You probably heard this too. Well, our insurance won't cover us, like our insurance won't cover us, oh gosh. Well, there you go. Then Stop ministry, the insurance won't cover us. I said the early church had no problem with that. So, yeah, romans 13, of course, and many churches stayed closed a year in our area, but, of course, romans. The context is when the government is obviously disobeying God. There you go and you see abortion clinics, pot shops, yeah, strip clubs. It's like, okay, that's enough's enough. 42:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, isn't it amazing Because I petitioned directly Newsom to please make a comment, make a public statement, because you notice, you, you guys remember this that he, he declared what was essential and non-essential and he never brought up once the houses of worship. So immediately we contacted his office and said you've got to make a statement. I didn't care what he said, you got to make a statement. Office and said you've got to make a statement, I didn't care what he said, you got to make a statement. His I viewed it this way his unwillingness to address houses of worship directly to me. I viewed that as go time. It means that there is something in his life that that is a little dimple in his armor. And so I sent him a video saying we're going to open. With all due respect, sir, allow us to be. The church in California can assist you in some of the great needs, and all that came to pass. But he did not approve. 43:08 - Speaker 4 Yeah, he could have done that so different. Yeah, I agree Absolutely. 43:11 - Speaker 2 But listen, you got to with the time that we have keep jumping in on this book. Everybody needs to get this book because all of us are prone to wanting to quit. So speak to us about how did it at all affect your marriage in these things. You shared a little bit about that. Yeah, do you want to? 43:32 - Speaker 4 write up anything Just regarding the hard season? Yeah, I think it can't, not when you know we joke he's going through a midlife crisis. I'm starting to go through, you know, the change of life on the woman's side, and so you've got all these things Aside from life. You've got hormones going out of whack. We've got kids growing up. We've got we had one child Whose hormones are going out of whack. We had one child later in life that came, you know, at the tail end. So we've got a 20 year old, down to a six year old and everything in between, and so we've got, you know, teenagers going into young adulthood and and it was a wild time- she wanted to go to church. 44:08 - Speaker 3 all the time I didn't want to go to church. 44:10 - Speaker 4 I just love it. 44:11 - Speaker 3 I just want to live. 44:11 - Speaker 4 I was done we just get a sleeping bag and just be there all the time I get a sleeping bag and just be there all the time I don't want to run into people. 44:15 - Speaker 3 I don't want to see people. 44:17 - Speaker 4 So and then you know the other challenges. Like I said earlier, losing his mom, covid, it's really been a few years of just. It's so weird and interesting too, because when you step back and look it's like okay, in the grand scheme of life, everything was fine. You know what I mean. Like you're looking like people have got it so much harder. 44:38 I look at other people's trials and I'm like we're a bunch of babies over here whining we are, but then, on the other hand, your trials are. They are real, your trials, and what the Lord is giving you and and they are very, very real and they were real to us. And so, yeah, I mean I think our marriage was tested between there and we joke about I've said this before, so it's not a surprise but earlier, when you said something in reference to oh, in Daniel, I think like take them or take me. And so we've been through times in our marriage where I've said, okay, divorce is not an option because there's no grounds for divorce, but you can take him or you can. One of us has got to go. So I don't care if it's him, I don't care if it's me, you got to take one of us to get us out of this situation. We joke about it now. It wasn't funny way back then, of course not. 45:28 - Speaker 3 I felt, though, the marriage was strong for me during this time the marriage and the family life with my kids. No big sin. All that was doing really good in my relationship. But the Lord was fine. It was with people Me and God are good. 45:44 - Speaker 2 You know what? I don't know if this speaks into the book or speaks out from your book, but for me, it's taken me forever, and I mean forever. It's taken Lisa and I, I don't know, it's got to be 30 years, it's just recently I have been able to discover this. So over the years, I would find myself becoming less enthusiastic about the message why. I know now why. 46:19 Well, that was a very, very hard week. There were the really urgent things that pushed out the important things of my life. So this person died, or our kid had this going on, or a grandkid this or that or the other, and so, um, you know, your, your secretary, says, um, okay, well, you've only got, uh, eight hours this week. Sorry, you only got eight hours for Sunday because this guy died and they're demanding that you do their funeral on Saturday. I don't know about you, but Friday and Saturday I'm a ghost. Nobody sees me, I'm, I'm locked down. Well, this is a a particular thing. You have to do this and then you have to do that, and and so for me, that puts, that's put, just puts pressure on me, because I mean, I don't mean to be crude about this, but this is how I review this. Instead of me marinating in the word of God with God, because the urgent things of ministry, you know they choke out the important thing, it's me walking into a room now and say, hey, god, sorry, this calendar has been nuts this week. Surely you know so normally what takes 25 hours. Can you give it to me in 10 or in eight? And it's kind of like. It's kind of like you showing up to Morgan or me showing up to Lisa and saying, hey, I know it's really been a really busy week but, like you know, can we get together physically right now for the next five minutes, cause I got to go? How horrible is that? And I and I, when that happens, it doesn't. It doesn't happen now, but when that happened, I found myself pushing the sermon up the mountain. 48:05 I found myself not being excited about what I had. I found myself and I coined this phrase to our staff. I said please pray for me because I feel like my study time has been like licking a rock. Think of the refreshment you get out of licking a rock. I mean it sucks everything out of your mouth. That said, the next thing I noticed was, uncharacteristically, I was becoming irritable with people. Short, they didn't know it at first. I I'm hiding it and I'm thinking thoughts like this hey, pastor Jack, you know I have to talk to you. Um, can you please pray my aunt's? She's had her poodle for 20 years. The poodle died. She lives in New York. And I just and I'm thinking, are you serious right now? Are you serious? You now, are you serious? You just stopped me to pray for your aunt's poodle in New York. Don't you understand that that person next to you is dying of cancer and here? 49:06 - Speaker 1 I am. 49:06 - Speaker 2 This is all going on in my head. 49:08 - Speaker 4 And why are you smiling, saying sure, I'll pray for your poodle. Yes, of course. 49:12 - Speaker 2 Oh, I love poodles too. And the Lord just nailed me. And you know what he nailed me? I was shocked he didn't say you need to really get your heart softened up, boy, you better repent. You know what he said. He said you're not Sabbathing, you're not Sabbathing with me. 49:33 And, man, we've learned, and I want to say I do this perfectly, I don't. But everyone's wired different. Every pastor or Christian worker that's listening to this right now. They need to find their own, so to speak, groove. But for me, I'm programmed to go 150% and I can do that for about five weeks, and then the sixth week I have got to have some sort of built in the mountains, the mountains, or, for us, the beach. I've got to unplug, I've got to not be near a book and not be near my device. I've got to get to that point where it's almost like you're drooling, like you're catatonic, almost. And that has been working for me, because even Jesus said to the disciples come away with me. And that has been something where now, when I realize I'm feeling shortness with his flock, with his precious people, it's him tapping me on the shoulder saying you need to come away with me, it's time, it's time. 50:38 - Speaker 3 Because from that relationship everything else flows you guys are so similar. 50:42 - Speaker 4 He just goes 110 miles an hour, 50 miles 150. And then yeah, yeah. 50:49 - Speaker 3 But I think the key for takeaway for a lot of the pastors will be get that relationship with the Lord back on track, get that joy back, repent if warranted, I don't care if you pastor 20, 200, 2000. Don't gauge it off that, gauge it off faithfulness, your pursuit of Him, and just be thankful. We've got to get that thankful. Bless the Lord, o my soul, bless His holy name. And I got disgruntled, very disgruntled. 51:18 - Speaker 4 Sorry. It reminds me what you said in the beginning when you said talking about strengthening yourself in the Lord. I mean you've used that in several sermons over the years of you can't always rely on someone else, like sometimes. You just got to get before the Lord and pull up your pants and strengthen yourself in the Lord, and Sabbath and resting are ways to do that. That's right. 51:39 - Speaker 2 So, Morgan, with the time that we have remaining, what would you say to the pastor's wife and, for those who are in Christian ministry, the wives? What do they? 51:50 - Speaker 4 need to hear. Yeah, because it's not just pastors I feel like we've talked about. This book can really apply to ministry on any level, or even moms. I mean, how many times do we just want to throw in the towel and go, you know, curl up in fetal position and rock and escape. But you know, like I said earlier I mean it sounds so cliche, but it's so true. My best advice is, like he said, hang on, just hang. Even if you're barely hanging on, you're pleading Lord. I can barely hang on. I need you to hang on to me. And he's so faithful I know it because I've lived it. 52:25 You get to a point, after walking with him for so long, that you see his track record over and over. He brought me through this trial. Oh, he never failed me yet. Oh, he's not going to start now and you just walk it out with him and you see his goodness. But then also, you know, maybe finding a friend outside of the church. Then also, you know, maybe finding a friend outside of the church. I've found, as a pastor's wife, it feels very lonely. Not in the sense of I mean, maybe for some in the sense of, like their husband's always busy For me. That's not what I mean when I talk about that. I mean it's more of who do you talk to? 52:58 That's right, you know who do I talk to when they need marriage counseling, and I feel like we need marriage, you know, like those types of things. 53:07 I didn't know that, but you know where, who do we get to talk to? Because you can't talk to people because your husband's their pastor. It's just a weird dynamic. So maybe finding someone outside of your congregation another pastor's wife maybe, that you can relate to and, just you know, being able to have dialogue and kind of talk through things that are going to be common only to pastor's wives or ministry wives, you know, maybe worship leaders and things that not everyone's going to understand, and you have to get on the same playing field in a sense. 53:43 - Speaker 2 I love what you're saying, because this almost sounds I don't know elite and I don't mean it to be, but a husband and a wife in the leadership of, say, apple computer I'm just picking that or Google. 54:06 They have their challenges, obviously, but it's completely different in ministry. And for those who are thinking right how many times you've seen this For those who are really good in corporate stuff and they come to Pastor Shane and they say you ought to hire me because I'm really good in corporate stuff, and they come to pastor Shane and they say you ought to hire me because I'm really good, I can be on staff because I'm you know, I'm this and that at at Google or Cisco it's not, it doesn't translate. They can be the star employee right At SpaceX and you think, wow, this person's skill sets, their ability to speak, is amazing. We'll make them an assistant pastor. Three months later, they fall completely on their face and they're the ones who tell you the truth of it. It is this man. I've addressed some of the biggest corporate wheels in Silicon Valley and I had no idea that being in a church is impossibly more difficult. 55:04 - Speaker 4 It's like I'll never understand what it is to be a fire wife, like the wives who I hear, who are wives of firemen and their husbands are gone and all that. I'll never fully understand that in a way that only they can, because they're living it. Other people aren't going to fully understand where we're coming from because we're we're the ones living. 55:23 - Speaker 3 And it's not a job, it's a calling. 55:25 - Speaker 2 And because it's a calling. Cisco's a job, vocation, ministry calling is a divine appointment from heaven above. It doesn't work without his power. The world says we need to build you up so you can do more for us. Jesus says I need to break you down so I can do more through you. It's a completely opposite kingdom and the amazing thing is is that, as influential as Apple might be in the world, apple's not fighting the principalities and powers of the satanic world. We do it every day and Apple's. You know I'm not taking anything away from secular business, but there's a high probability that your kids are not under or in the sights of Satan. Every pastor's kids are targeted by the dark world. 56:20 - Speaker 3 I remember 25 years ago, when I came back to the Lord I read about, you know, reading Spurgeon. You know lectures to my students. So I remember one of the lines he said. He said if you can do anything else, do it. I'm like, oh, it must have been kind of hard back in the 1800s. You know it must have been hard back then. Boy, do you live. You know exactly. I tell my kids all the time if you do anything else, do it. Don't even get in the ministry unless God calls. If he's calling, then you can't stop him. That's it, yeah. 56:49 - Speaker 4 A couple of other things that come to mind is when you guys were talking about the criticism and different things. I'd really encourage the pastor's wife to not allow her heart to become bitter and critical, because sometimes we hear so much against you guys. You know that I can. I have tended to have to repent, really, and and and take my thoughts captive um on my thinking towards people and just to say, just to stay soft and tender, um, and you know, sometimes I mean there's been times I said in there too where I'm like, okay, so let me get this straight you want my husband on call 24 hours a day? 57:24 missing family functions this, that and the other, and then you're going to go pop off on Facebook on a comment, like you know. So I've really had to. You know what, lord, I love these, but like, and we have an amazing congregation. I mean, we, I you probably feel the same like ours is the best congregation and you think yours is, you know, but we really do. But, um, yeah, just just areas that we have to be conscious of, I think as we go through and that mama bear can kind of come out and like, okay, no, let's, let's stay soft, let's stay humble and and thankful and trying to see people for where they're at. You know, everyone who's criticizing has issues going on. 58:03 - Speaker 3 That's why they're probably criticizing it wasn't the people of our church, it was me. I mean, we have great people, oh yeah, during this time. Yeah, I can't really. 58:10 - Speaker 2 Sure, you're the worst, but I mean in general. Yeah, of myself, yeah, I agree same here. 58:15 - Speaker 4 And then also the family, just protecting the family. Like you, you know your family's your first ministry and there is no church, making sure that, your family being the last thing I ever want is for one of our five kids to walk away because they didn't want ministry because of what they saw in us or they didn't want God because of what they saw in us. So trying to find that balance of um, keeping, keeping that first, but also doing ministry well. 58:43 - Speaker 3 That brought me back, because the example I'm leaving oh, dad just wants to quit. This is how you, when ministry gets hard, this is how you press in. So what a great lesson, wasn't it? I've been through this. I've been through hell and back emotionally and other, but this is how you press in and get anchored to God and watch the spirit. You can now Jeremiah his words in my heart like a burning fire. Out of your body will flow rivers of living water. Many people don't know what that is, but you do what. You've drank, and drank deeply of that well of Christ and have been broken by him. It's just. It's just this incredible relationship and I've had it before but I lost it for a season because you know. 59:22 - Speaker 2 There's no doubt about it that the ministry is draining and the challenge is to keep, as the temple period, keep the fire burning. And I love the comfort where the Lord says to us smoking flax. Right, he will not extinguish that little ember, nor will he break a bruised reed, because that totally announces to us. You have to be a nut not to get it that our lives are bent reeds and there are times when we are just a smoldering wick and he will rekindle and he will strengthen. But to do that it has to be impossible and it has to be miraculous, and that's where he shows up. 01:00:10 - Speaker 4 And that's the best thing, because we wouldn't want. I mean, if we didn't have to face the trials, if we were doing everything and we could just do it in our own power. What's the point? 01:00:18 - Speaker 1 Yeah. 01:00:18 - Speaker 4 And there's no need for him. You know it's pointless. 01:00:21 - Speaker 3 It goes on. I mean, we've been talking about it a little bit, but of course, the power of prayer and the prayer closet, again recapturing that time with the Lord I mean you talked about it too that's the key. The power closet, the prayer closet, is the power closet, and that's where you get that anointing back and that unction back and that relationship back and it back, and so I think God used it to push me down even lower into that time of seeking him. 01:00:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, isn't it amazing what you just said. I know we have to wrap this up, but we can go on forever. It's interesting because people will say, oh God, I need to be better at prayer, I need to pray more, I need to really develop my prayer life. And God says oh, great, good, great. Here's how it happens. I'm going to send you a trial and then, when it comes, you go well, wait a minute. No, that's exactly what you're asking for, because this is how it comes about. It's high pressing. So, yeah, it's amazing. 01:01:18 - Speaker 3 So well, you know, I do want to let people know we actually have it available as a free download. I mean of know. I do want to let people know we actually have it available as a free download. I mean, of course it's on Amazon, but it's a free download. How so? How does that happen? At our church website, westsidechristianfellowshiporg Free e -books? All my books are free books, so they can click it, read it right now for free. We want to make sure we offer that to all the pastors. That's amazing. That is awesome. That's the best spot. So Westside Christian Fellowship free downloads. 01:01:42 - Speaker 2 Yep, wow, that's amazing. No, please, everybody, get your hands on this book, especially now that the price is right Zero and it just doesn't have to be limited to ministry, because it's really speaking to those times in our lives when we just feel like giving up. Maybe it's a marriage and people are saying I'm done with this marriage and so, listen, the good thing about being a believer is that we do not have the permission to make decisions for ourselves. Right, we have to consult him, we have to follow his lead. 01:02:14 And so, man, first of all, I love our friendship, Shane, and you mean everything to me. You're a brother that I never have to look back over my shoulder to see how he might be doing. You are just plodding along like Warren Wiersbe's book in Praise of Plodders. Over all these decades, I've never had to worry about Shane Idleman going backwards or saying something that is off. You are a man steadfast and you honor the Lord Jesus. You have not denied his name and it's, it's awesome. And, Morgan, thank you, because I know, we know, that without our wives, we would have given up a long time ago, or even worse, and so you guys are dear to us. 01:02:55 - Speaker 3 I thank you for that. But I want to remind people too. You have to hold to the foundation that I would, Shane I would fail next week if it were up to me. So true, it's that anchor of that relation with Christ, pursuing Him regardless, Though he slay me while I trust Him. I think it's my life verse one of them, because, Lord, where am I going to go? Yeah, I love you To you alone. Yeah, Get that call stage four. That's right, you know cancer. 01:03:18 I still have to love you. You know that's right. Thank you, we appreciate your ministry. Actually, your ministry has helped us stay the course as well. 01:03:25 - Speaker 4 So it works both ways. 01:03:26 - Speaker 2 It's the body of Christ coming together. Amen. Awesome, thank you, thank you. 01:03:35 - Speaker 1 This Jack Hibbs podcast, as well as all the broadcast outreach opportunities, are listener supported. Will you consider partnering with us through a special gift? Go to jackhibbs.com to learn more and stay connected.