I Almost Quit

Real life presents the Jack Hibbs podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture. Hey everybody, you're not going to want to miss this podcast. In fact, you're going to want to share it with other people, and here's the reason why. You need encouragement. Have you become cast down? Do you feel like giving up? Do you feel like quitting? Well, it's pretty native to anyone who's accomplishing something. And so we have a very, very special program today. You're going to be blessed to hear from Shane and Morgan Idolman, and this excellent book, you'll be blessed to find out what you are about to hear. Stay tuned. You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to jackhibbs.com slash podcast. Today, if this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five star ratings. To us, that's like saying amen or yes, then that rating will encourage others to listen. Now, open your hearts to what God's word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. Gosh, you guys, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us and Morgan. It's great to have you here. So let's dive in to what God has been speaking to you and the new book. I need to know. We need to know the genesis of it. Where does it come from? Because I love the title. I mean, who in any area of life be it ministry, be it just life school, student, parents? How many times have we quit in our hearts and in our minds? And some have completely quit. Absolutely. Where does this come from? Well, especially as a pastor, so many people can relate to it. Because what pastor hasn't thought about quitting? Because it's a pretty stressful job with the ups, the downs, the, I mean, you cost some of your issues, but there's also a lot of discouragement, critical spirit, especially if you're bold. You know, especially if you're bold. Yeah, especially if you're bold, you get a lot more criticism. And it just started probably a few years ago. I'd never planned on writing the book. Anytime I write a book, it has to be something in my heart that God's doing. Because it's a, it's a process and I don't want to, I don't want to touch if God's not in it. So going through this difficult season and I don't know how much to get into, but discouragement. Yeah, get in. And then that, that turns into you become critical. That's right. You know, I'm discouraged. I'm critical. All these things I thought were going to happen aren't really happening. And then you throw in, as I'm getting older, as you know, the health issues start to play a role now that I didn't have when I was younger. I was simple that remark. And so, and then we had some California. How many people moved from, from your church? What do we, I mean, we're, oh, from our church. I mean, we lost hundreds and hundreds of elders and deacons and friends and fans. And it was just a constant getting hit with this, this, um, people moving. Which that, that in of itself is, is it to be expected. But then you throw in just some, maybe some good friendships that where they turn on you, gossips. I guess we should make it clear. You know, people moving, what we mean by that is people moving out of state, fleeing for their lives because of this government. Exactly. Yep. And it's not that just people move to get away from, from the people in the mountains. Yeah, no, people have a hard time. We watched people leave. We watched people depart from here as though, as though it was some form of an Exodus that they didn't want to participate in. They were, they were in a sense, weeping. And some were weeping. We've got to go because the company that we work for can't take it in California more and they're moving to fill in the blank. Or they, and I think this is another, it wouldn't need to get it now. But there's another big wave if California let government does the wrong thing again. And that is, there's going to be another mass exodus of parents with their children with some of the things that are up there in Sacramento. School district, yeah. That's basically government sanctioned, uh, molestation by strangers. I mean, I, people think that's extreme. No, you just wait till we impact that. Yeah, it's, it's huge. That's, that's for a later day. But that affects your heart as a pastor for this reason. I don't mind them leaving. But when I find out and I ask them, where are you going? Oh, we're going to XYZ City. Have you found a church there? No, I'm sure we'll find one. And you can't say that anymore. No, actually, you probably won't because there's so few Bible, you'll find a church, but you, you might not find a Bible in that church. We've had several. Well, that's the number one, that's the number one question. Do you know of a good Bible church in this area? Not that there aren't, but you know, the church needs to be the hub. Absolutely. You know, and so I, I changed my attitude on that too. I was a little too critical at first. You know, like, guys, California's we're fighting for. And she is, we've talked a lot. We believe that, but, you know, we're kind of stuck. Yeah. So, so anyway, discouragement, health issues. I mean, I want, there's a lot of other issues. We're just, was beating, I didn't feel like preaching. When a preacher doesn't feel like preaching, I don't want to go church on Wednesdays. It was hard to go on Sundays. And, but something dynamic took place. When I would prepare my heart and I'd say, Lord, even, even if I don't feel like it. And some, those are some of the best sermons because the word of God comes alive. And you can tell when, when Holy Spirit is just empowering that message. And then I'd leave and go home. And here comes this, this wanting to quit. You know, I finally told my kids too. Like, I don't really want to do this anymore. And it was a, you know, there's crying. And there's like, I can't believe how much you're describing me and I'm not joking. Yeah. How often are you? Well, most pastors finally open up to me. They don't, they don't want to write the, you know, that they don't want to be one of those people. You do know that we're doing the podcast right now, Shane. You guys, I mean, people are going to know this, but I'm with you. I mean, I can't, I can't articulate enough. You wrote your resignation in your head a few times. What? You know, I can tell you, I've physically written my resignation over the last 35 years. I've written it six times. Wow. Yeah. Until we know, but you know, you can't quit because God called you. That's the only anchor. That's the only reason. I knew I couldn't do it, but you, you play with those ideas. I even thought about running for governor. And I'm like, yeah, maybe that was God talking to you. No, well, I actually, I texted you. I think you didn't get it, but like Jim Garlo, Rob McCoy, even our senator, and they're like, no, no, no, stay in your wheelhouse. You don't even, I'm like, okay, but you start, you start to think other things. My brother's got a great business in Idaho in the Treasure Valley there by your Calvary Chapel. And, you know, there's great opportunities where I can, you know, but you, you, I know. It's the enemy plants these, these thoughts in your mind. And if you don't take those thoughts captive and say, Lord, you've called me to do this. So one day I, I just repented. I mean, to be frank. And I said, Lord, I'm doing this. I'm, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to fight this discouragement. I'm going to, a lot of it too with my health. For me, I turned to food. And so I was gaining, gaining weight. Lead pressure was high. Signs of pre-diabetes, metabolic syndrome. All these things, I, I'm in health of fitness, so I know about it. So this was hitting me, doctors, you know, blood pressure was getting hot and, and this. And, and so, but I finally repented. And the joy came back and the book came from that. Like, okay, now I can help people. That's why the subtitle is my journey through the land of minds of ministry. And navigate those land. And then had her write a chapter, of course, because she went through the whole, the whole process as well. She almost quit too. Okay, now that just, that just terrifies me because if you remember in the scriptures where, for example, Moses would say to God, I can't stand these people. I want you to either kill them or kill me. I can't put up with them anymore. And then God talks Moses off the ledge. And then the next day God says, Moses, get out of the way, I'm going to kill all of them. They drive me crazy. And then Moses says, now God, what about your great name? Yeah, yeah. So thank God, they didn't agree on the same day. That's, that said, I can tell you that, Lisa and I thank God have never agreed on the same day about that, that type of stuff. And that's just the goodness of God balancing us because how many times have you gone home to hear her counsel to say, yeah, guess what? You don't have the permission to quit. Yeah. Well, when we were struggling, you remember, when I was going through this, I'm like, I need another sabbatical. You know, it's been like four or five years where I took like four months. I'm like, I need another one. And she's like, no, you don't. You need to, you need to just get back in there and preach as much as possible. Be there as much as possible. And that was the best advice to, you know, to just. Absolutely. Because you have to, some of these struggles, you have to fight through. That's how perseverance is developed. That's how now there's a boldness that came back. That I had with COVID when we talked during COVID, we opened our churches the same day. And that boldness is back, that fortitude, that strength that Lord has called me to do this. And so I think I had to go through that season as did she, to be able to just strengthen my faith and to help strengthen the faith of others. It was so powerful that I finally opened up. Was it April? On a Sunday, begin crying, sometimes explaining the books coming out. You guys need to know this because, you know, hey, I'm a squid, like people are surprised. But that started, you could hear the weeping throughout the congregation, right? The next Sunday, the first service alters full, like completely. We didn't, I didn't even go up to preach at the second. We just continued in worship for another hour and a half. People coming forward, it was just, that's revival. I was just going to say, that's the opening throw of revival. Absolutely. We would have never experienced that, but it came through so much brokenness and transparency. And that's why I think pastors need to get back to, you know, we've got one side, the woke cowardly, just, you know, political correct. But then we have the other side, you know, suit and tie, master's degree and divinity, and nothing wrong with that. But you know, it's just this pride and I don't struggle through anything, but we've got to find that brokenness and humility and allow the spirit of God to come upon you and preach from that reservoir of time spent with him. That's where powerful sermons come from. They don't come from just preparation. They come from the prayer closet. I just, Shane, I just love what you're saying, because in fact, that was recently asked this. And what you're saying is that the struggles of ministry are not only difficult, but they're necessary. And if we're honest with our scripture reading, we see Paul the Apostle being the most transparent, honest, powerful, weak, right, effective, but not seeing it, minister, I view it this way. I see Paul as being our New Testament example of ministry. Of course, Jesus encompasses all from Genesis to Revelation. Having said that, you look at Paul's life, and then in the Old Testament, I look at David. So transparent, so open, that he shares the deepest darkest thoughts and stuff of his life, while at the same time having incredible power. And how many times did we read in scripture where David wanted to give up? And he strengthened himself in the Lord. Or in one case, all of his mighty men of valor, I think it was Zickleg. It was such a devastation that they turned on him and they wanted to kill him. And David had nowhere to go, but it says, but he strengthened himself in the Lord. And so to keep from quitting, what did you do, or the both of you do, to get this book and its title to be what it is, what did God show you to do regarding not quitting? Well, chime in and then you can add to it, because it was a process, but I had to get to that point, because you can stay in the blame game. Oh, I don't know about you, but I have a defense attorney within. He likes to defend. That's a good idea. And, you know, I'm gonna keep that. You can use it, I'm sure I borrowed it from somebody. And so I said, Lord, this is wrong. The people don't, my look at the example I'm being from, I mean, I might start crying here. You know, when Dad comes home, doesn't want to preach anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. Scares them. You know, and I can see it in their eyes. And then, what would I tell people? What would I, and I know God's calling. And often, often the greater the calling, the more pain it's gonna produce. No, I think that's a fact. And AW Tozer before God uses a man greatly, he breaks him or hurts him deeply. Absolutely. And so it was just, in my journey, another breaking process. And so the turning point was repentant saying, Lord, this, I know this isn't right. I know you've called me to preach. I need that fire, the spirit back again, God, I need to, but I had, again, I know this is kind of a sidetrack, but with my food and diet, and I had it that was using comfort food as eating. And so once I discipline my body again, got back into fasting. So I went on, this whole thing about revival is a popular word right now. It's not gonna come through these great people, charging tons of money and let's get loud. It comes through deep brokenness and humility through the man of God that God calls, he puts his anointing on that man who's been broken by God. And that's where revival's gonna come from. And so it revived our church, it revived our ministry. The book, that was done in two months, completely done. That's quick. Oh gosh. We were on a plane to Florida. That is amazing. And it was like, I feel like on the plane back from Florida, it was all the concepts were like there, the chapters almost. It was, but then to write it took a little bit, but the whole idea of it was really quick. And then you opened up about, you were going through a lot of struggles too. Do you see me discouraged? Yeah, that's rough. That's rough to watch, right? For any spouse on either side. And so feeling it also for myself, but needing to encourage him and trying to find the balance of like you said, well, we can't both want to quit on the same day, that's not gonna work. Because we know we're not quitting. So Lord strengthen me to be a support to him while also crumbling a little bit inside my cell. It was kind of a bizarre time and a lot of trials. We lost his mom. Life changed, there was just a lot. And so I think what helped, in a sense helped me was realizing no one gets a pass. You read the word and life is hard for everyone. Choose your heart. We're either gonna, we quit, that's gonna be hard. We say the course, that's gonna be hard. So choose your heart. And really when we, you know, might sound a little cliche or whatever, but like when you're barely holding on, make sure it's to the hem of his garment. So it's like when I was barely holding on like Lord, I feel like maybe I can't even hold on, but you're not gonna let go of me and us in this mentoring. You built this, it would make no sense for us to walk away from something that he's gifted, you know? So I mean, truly I don't, I don't know if I can't even put into words other than but God. I mean, we wouldn't be here if he didn't hold it together. You're articulating spiritual realities that are must and that they are required in the Christian walk, it's required as disciples and followers to experience this stuff. For some reason, maybe it's all kinds of reasons of bad teaching, modern day, what Westernized Christianity where, you know, if you're gonna follow God, isn't it gonna be great? Your life's gonna be a push. And Shane, I love what you said earlier about, if God and Tozer, you said it right, how Tozer made that so vividly clear that for God to use a man, you must break that man. And... But I know why to interrupt, but yeah, please, humility is so important. I think it's the key ingredient, missing ingredient because then you don't lash out as much at your congregation. You listen, you have that compassion, a heart that broke because God broke you. Now you're more receptive, now you can help, you can weep with them, you can pray for them, you're not some superstar stepping up in the pulpit, let me show you how polished this sermon is and how well, a thousand, a hundred thousand followers on Instagram, and we've, I mean, we've gotta be real careful on this day and age we live in, you know. We live in an age of what I say is veneer. Yes, it's kind of like the cover of this. I assume this table has got wood somewhere, I don't know for sure because it's covered with what maybe looks like wood. I'm not sure if it's wood or not, it's veneer. That said, a lot of people today, they don't even realize it yet, but they're living a veneer Christianity. And what that means is to me is that it's been very, very convenient and safe for them to be believers. They go to church and they leave and it's all fine and dandy and everything's great. The money's coming in, kids are doing okay. I think the marriage is fine and all this kind of stuff. And then they think they are, you know, that somehow they're pleasing God because that's why it's all good. I mean, that's twisted thinking, but it's human. Well, I must be pleasing God because everything's good. That falsehood shocks you because when, not a temptation, I'm not interested in temptation. Temptation comes from the enemy and from the world and from my flesh. God has made it very clear, we can resist temptation. It all comes down to, do you love God? Oh, I love God, okay, then resist temptation. Fight it. The great challenge for us is trials. Temptations from the world, the enemy and the flesh. Trials are engineered by God. Knowing that he's allowing. Yeah. He's going to, he's the one that's actually taking this part of your spiritual body and bending it or even as a rebellious lamb could be, he'll break the back leg to draw that lamb closer to himself. And so I'm not concerned about the temptations. It's me enduring the trials. And then he comes right back and says to us, Jack, it's tailor-made for you. This is custom. Well, it doesn't feel custom, right? And then Satan lies to us and says, you know, you are the only one going through this. Yes. I mean, he lies to us and tries to isolate us. And then the beautiful thing of all of that is at the end of it, you realize had that not happened. I wouldn't have that sweet communion with him. It's the very thing that I want to run from, push away from, get out of my life. It's the very thing that he uses to bring me closer to him. I mean, that just the breaking is so hard. And even with our kids, like, as a mom, I'm sure dads feel it, too. But I don't know if mom's feel it even more. Like, I do not want to see them go through things. And he always reminds me they have to. Like, if you want them to get to that point with the Lord, that you want them to get to, he's going to break them one way or another. And like, oh, Lord, just be easy. Go easy on him. But it's so true. Just looking back in my own life. And like, that's so true. If those things hadn't happened, I wouldn't have that sweet communion with him as I do. And again, that's part of being a married Christian couple, is that I think it's, because Lisa's the same way. But then you and I, we know. Because we're coming from the guy's perspective. You're coming from the mom's perspective. We're thinking, yeah, you know what? I remember when I thought I could jump off the roof and not break my leg. And then I jumped off the roof and broke both my legs. That was the only way for me to learn how to stop jumping off of buildings. And it sounds almost cruel to where, well, you know, sweetheart, you got to let God, he's going to have to do with them. And it's like, what? Well, what we're trying to articulate is, is what, again, Tozer said, for God to use them, they've got to be broken. Our church is no stranger to me making this statement. And again, I think I've still on this front, Tozer, is that you must come. Everybody, please, you must evaluate your life and make sure that you've come to that, for what I call first encounter of a crisis of faith. Your faith has got to be tested or else, I'm not sure if you're a believer. Well, let me put it this way. You can be a believer. But do you have faith in Jesus Christ? Because Jesus said Himself in Matthew, that these are they who believe for a while, but they go back into the world when persecution comes. They didn't lose their salvation, they never had it. They just believed because it was convenient. Does your belief, so to speak, drive you over to faith? And the only way of faith is going to be born into us, is trust, exactly, we've got to be tested, so that we can trust. You know what, the irony is, it was such a special time, 3am to 6am, every morning, worship, just seeking the Lord. And there's an interesting verse, at least for me, I wrote it down, I just highlighted it, I meditated, and it's that verse, and you know, verse just jumps out, and I actually put down the Bible, I think I begin to even just cry at that, and just, but it says he said his face like a flint. And I'm like, that's about the cross, right? Of course, Calvary, but I'm like, if he did, why not me? Why not, no matter if the ministry dies, if it sinks, he must increase. I'm like, if I'm going to stay here in this spot, no matter, and you just set your face like a flint, and there's so much joy that follows, because joy, remember, is not what's happening to you. That's right. Happiness is happening. Joy is an internal love for the Lord or relationship, no matter, and then Job, of course, though he slay me, yes, yet why trust him? When you get to those spots, not much can knock you off course, and something we have not touched on yet, that we need to is, fortunately, he brought me from pastoring a little church, medium-sized church, now it's a large church, but you also have that how we measure each other, mega, how many followers, how many Instagram, and what school did you go to, what's your budget? I'm like, what do people ask me? What's it have to do with anything? So we've got this concept that bigger is better, and so that kind of really, in my mind too, oh Lord, is there somewhere out like, is this all, aren't we supposed to be this massive? But then you realize demographics, different demographics, different graphics, playing a huge role in that, and but we do, we measure ourself, I came out of the business world, I don't know if you know this, but I was a corporate executive of 24-hour fitness, so I'd met multiple fitness centers, and that's how we rate its success by numbers, I'd beat myself every year, 6% same-store growth. So I've got this in, you know, got a build, got a build, got a build, got a build, and got a, no, no, no. Maybe where you're at is where you're gonna be for the rest of your life, and I'm ready to die there. But if you don't deal with that, you think, and I talked to so many pastors with smaller, and the rating success by numbers were God rates it by faithfulness. Now granted, God will grow the Chino Hills, and the MacArthur's Churches, and David Jeremiah's, and you know, because there's nothing, there's nothing about the size at all, but we get focused, at least a lot of the, they think they're not sick, man, I'm only at 100 people, I don't know what's going on, what do you, let me tell you, there's MacArthur's Churches, I could name names right now, they are so far from God, they're not leading their people to the cross, they've compromised their woke, you are in a much better position than that person overseeing 10,000 people, don't get caught up in the numbers game. I really appreciate what you're saying, and I think this podcast is gonna be very beneficial for a lot of reasons, but one of them is, I love what you just said, people can relate to that, and I don't even know how, I've never articulated this before, so you're forcing me to do this. The pendulum for me is on the other side, meaning, I have, if I'm guilty of complaining to God, it's regarding one string on my guitar, and it's this, I have resisted church growth, I have, from the beginning, when we were a home Bible study from Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa in those days, I literally would, when we had 25 people in the living room, it was so sweet to me and so, and I love knowing people's names, and I love meeting them and knowing them, that I ask them, I literally ask them, don't tell anyone else about our Monday night, they can go to their other, and it just grew, and I have to tell you, I did not like it, I had pastors tell me, you oughta be freaking out with excitement right now. I thought, well, here's another part where I'm weird and wrong, I'm not seeing this, and I feel like I'm, you know, upsetting God because I'm not happy about the growth, and even to this day, if this church, I'm good with this church going down to 100 people, my point is this, though, you said it, is I don't care if I preach to 10,000 adults every Sunday, what I care about is, will a hundred of them be discipled across the finish line? Because the numbers in ministry, numbers can deceive you. And we learned that during COVID, when we were open during COVID, people were flocking to the church, and they were literally saying to me, hey, I'm really glad you're open, I'm the board member of so and so church, I'm not gonna name the names, people know the names. And so, you know, here I am to serve, and then two weeks later, the same man comes back and says, did I understand you right today? When you said, I must be born again, to enter the kingdom of it, I was shocked. This guy's a board member of a world-renowned church, and he was, he had never heard that he had to be born again. How is that? How is that possible? Because you know what? They came from a church with numbers, and the ministry teaching style was to preserve the numbers. And so knowingly or unknowingly, they watered it down in such a way to keep the numbers. When I believe that you should deliver God's word in such a way that with whimsomeness, with respect, with love, and with honor to the flock, do everything you can to empty the seats of your church. What do I mean? Jesus said this, and I believe this with all of my heart, I could, this is a hill for me to die on. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, they follow me. I don't need church growth tactics, I don't need church growth seminars. If I am faithful to give them his word, then he will bring and delete those that are his and not his. I mean, you two just say so many of the same things. Well, but I think too, that's why with Chino Hills, I believe in other churches, our do grow is because God honors, it's not your desire. That's right. God brings where other pastors, maybe even myself, if you're rating it by that, God might keep you where you're at until you deal with that pride issue. Because for me, I had low self-esteem. Came from a very angry home. My dad was from the Farms of Oklahoma. My dad was from the Farms of South Dakota. Really, okay. So I think I'm feeling like a man. And it was boy, you don't cry. You do not cry. You do not cry. And so I don't know, I told my mom, she goes, oh, she passed away during COVID, not of COVID. But that's all I'm gonna say. Don't give me started. I almost drove to Idaho because they would not let my family visit. Of course. And she's 40 feet away, dying in the emergency room. Stupidest time ever in America. By far. So back on track. So I was taught that. And I told my mom, I don't know if you ever said I love you. And she goes, oh, no, I'm sure he did. And dad, look at, you know, just all-star picture and just never, people can't believe it probably, but just wanting your dad to appreciate you. And so I think with some of us, like with me, I measured bigger church growth, okay, I've succeeded. God, and you look at God the same way you do your father. And so he really had to do it. And I had to get to a point because we're, and I love it. It's funny. We go back. I'm like, I'm quite comfortable. I love, I don't want more. Because there is something nice with, you know, we're in the rolling hills of Leon of Alley. Tuck back in these beautiful oak trees and like. Gorgeous. But then there's, you always feel, you know, like, Lord is there more? Is there, did I miss it? Am I, am I not really a pastor if I'm not, you know, a mega church? Do you think too much? Yeah, overanalyzed for sure. You do, his brain never shut down. Yeah, yeah. And so, but back to, I think, how I was raised in that, that, and that's why criticism hurts me more than it should. I know she don't read your comments ever. No, I do not. That's, I'm, I started that. That really helps. I'm going to be very transparent with you guys is when the young people around me said, you need social media. I didn't even know what that was. So I started out and then the first hour, I looked at some things and there were some things that were so honestly stooping and ridiculous that it was so not true. And immediately by God's grace, it hurt me. And I had no ability to deal with it. Because I couldn't call them. I couldn't reach out to them. And even if I could, that type of comment, there's no winning them back. And then wait, winning them to what? And they don't want your answer. They're 24 years old living in their mom's basement in Vermont or wherever. And they're critical of you. And so that, because of a person low self-esteem, I take criticism like that was like wearing army too. And people that would, you know, you get 10 times more criticism. But the end you're bold, you're bold pastor in this political climate. And you got, it just so the criticism weighed on me more than it should. And then the, you know, the numbers game, right? Rating success by certain things. And so it was a great breaking point. It was a great, and I encourage pastors submit to the breaking university later. Brace it, repent, repent and say, Lord, I want the refreshing of the spirit again. I want those rivers of living water. I don't care. My sermons need to come from the prayer closet. God revive me again and watch what he does, you know? Man, I love that. And I know this is a podcast for some other day, but I'm afraid we'll never remember this again. You said it right there. Where the brokenness, the brokenness is where true foundations and strength and victory is had. And you might see, Jack, you're insane. You just said brokenness and foundations. That cannot, that's like oxymoronic thinking. No, in Christianity, it's exactly how it works. The great foundations are laid by brokenness. Having said that, I remember going to some, it was when Mill Gibson was launching the Passion of the Christ, and they were hosting it at Saddleback Church. And Rick Warren, of course, that was his church at the time. And during that whole presentation, Rick Warren said something that I've never forgotten, because honestly, it was so offensive. He said, oh, with Easter coming up, everybody, if you just go to pastor.com, you can download my sermons, all my sermons are there, and you can preach and teach my sermons. It's like $25 a year, pastor.com, and you can preach my sermons, and you can think about using those for Easter. I was so offended in that crowd, because I had been trained by Czech Smith. You go hide, you go hide away, and though we were taught to have our stack of great commentaries from preachers of yesterday year, this is how I was brought up, and I'm so grateful that you go alone with God. My first approach to scripture is reading the Bible of where we're going to be this coming Sunday. You read, you read it, you read it, then you circle key words, and then I have a notebook, and I'm writing things down, and then there's somewhat of a skeleton that begins to be constructed, and then God prompts verses, oh, this verse for this application, for this point, and it's coming together, and when you have, it may be on paper, or for the young folks on their computers, it doesn't matter. You've got all these pages that are out there, that it's not until I have my message that God has given me, that's the only way I can be excited about the message. So people will say to me, oh my gosh, you're so excited about the message, or you're so animated about the message. I don't even realize I am until I realize, well guess what, I was just given this from the kitchen, as it were from the Lord, and I can't wait to shout this. And I don't consult the commentaries, again, I'm taking the Chucksmith, Pastor Chucksmith models, you're done. Exactly, I look at the greats that were before us to confirm my theology's correct, but when I go into this sermon, when I go into the message of the pulpit, it is, you can hear the plate sizzling on my heart, right? Being served up, but when somebody said, oh, you can just preach my sermon for 25 bucks. I thought, is this America? Is this the church today? Because it's not the church today. That's my exact sermon prep. Everything was just said. I've got Post-it notes, I've got pages, this scripture leaps out like how am I put, and then when it comes together, it's like you've... Like you're pregnant. I don't say sometimes, I have to give birth. I say that, I have to give birth to, and when you do, you drive home like, oh, that felt good. Because you know the spirit of the living God, and you're just, you're taking rabbit trails, and people are convicted, and we got our prayer room is full, and you got, man, just the spirit of God moved, because he spoke to you individually. And then for me, see, now listen, for me, that's the kind of stuff that gets me back into the pulpit on Wednesdays and Sundays. That brings me back, because you, you may not feel it, you may not feel it, because you've got a thousand different thoughts and feelings and people calling and saying, you're a bonehead and whatever's going on, but it's Jeremiah. It's Bernie, it's gotta get out. And you, and I want to suggest this to you, and though you already know this, I'm sure in the spirit. You mentioned, you opened up by saying about how it was so difficult to go to the pulpit and you felt like quitting, and then it's horrible on the way home, because you know we preach our breath sermons. On the way home. Yeah, on the way home. What did I say that? Why did I say that? What's, but the great thing about what you're saying is obedience is quite possibly the most beautiful form of worship. I think that there's out there today. It's not the goosebumps because the song is just the right, and the temperature of the sanctuary is just right. Share obedience. You know people talk to you and I and talk about you and I, as though we're somehow some sort of teflon pastors because we open the doors to the church, during COVID and all this kind of stuff, and we get all kinds of, oh, you're the pastor, that's courageous, and I have to stop this. It stops, please stop right there. You don't understand how, how pathetically weak it is. Forage was gonna say, current courage doesn't mean lack of fear. Exactly. Oh, I love it. We've been in the midst of the fear, but you are, you know where your strength comes from. He said, be strong and courageous. Awesome. So you know, okay, I might be, there might be some, you know, trepidation here, but we're gonna plow for it. Listen to this. One of the founding fathers of Delta Force, Dr. Jerry Boykin, oh yeah, yeah. Said that in this case, ministry, and he was talking about military, that courage is the management, the proper management of fear. Courage is the proper management of fear. So everyone would say, oh, Pastor Shane, I fear so bad, I'm so intimidated, I'm terrified, I feel like quitting, wait a minute. You wanna defeat that this way, manage it, use it. Well, Satan says I stink. You can remind Satan, Satan, you did tell me that, but I do know you're a liar, so that's very encouraging to me. You're already defeated. You're already defeated, so I'm gonna take that from you, and you manage that. So it's not like you and I were like, you know, Teflon coated pastures during the COVID era, it was in white knuckle, sheer dry mouth, obedience, and the craziest time ever. I upset people no matter what I did. I gotta ask you a question. That was pretty wild. I've never asked this of a pastor before, with all that has happened post COVID. Would you do COVID again all over again? Meaning, knowing what you know, if you could back up and redo it all, the last, you know, I wanna do it the same way. Would you do it the same way? Would you, would you, I know exactly. Because I know what my answer is. Yeah, well first, if you remember, you texted me like a month during COVID, you said, when you think of opening, I said, I think we agreed on May 31st, and I said, hey, that's Pentecost Sunday. You told me later. Yeah, oh later, okay. We were communicating. And it was on April 26th at the Lord's book to my heart from Revelation chapter three, crystal clear. And then we were texting. And I said something about May 31st, and then you later, I have the thread. You later said, you do know that that's Palm Sunday, right? Pentecost. Or Pentecost Sunday. And I said, I did not know, and so that, your word coming back to me, somebody might say, what's the big deal? Who cares? Hey, you were there at the moment. When you text me back and said, oh my gosh, the Lord impressed upon my heart May 31st, and Shane text me and says, it's Pentecost that day. It's like, oh God, you are so amazing to this point. This is beautiful. This is like what John MacArthur said about the pulpit for the pastor. We are chained to the pulpit. The chains may be velvet, but we're chained nonetheless. What a great word. With what you had said and what the Lord had impressed upon my heart. So this is the confirmation where here's the beauty of it. If somebody tried, and they did, if somebody tried to talk me out of that day, it was impossible. You mentioned sitting in your face like Flint. People told me, well, what about this other day because we can open up and we can have, we can do this and have flyers and the other thing. Nope, it was this. And the beautiful thing was that if I were to, if I would have said, okay, we'll do that some other week. I knew that I would have been sitting. It was that crystal clear. I, wow, could not, I could not waver. And people, I get it, even people close to me. You're being stubborn about this. You're being, you have no idea. And it was one of those moments where, Lord, I'm not even sure if I agree with it. But I'm gonna follow you. And I love it. So my answer is, I wouldn't change a thing. That's what I was gonna say. I would actually be more, that's right, you know. Well, let's do, let's, you know, let's pass out mask in case they want. Let's, let's, this is bold. I'm not putting up with any of this shenanigans. We certainly have. But, you know, it was, no matter what you did, you're upsetting people. You've got the, you know, the max, there's not maskered. Why you open, why you open and we were called, like you probably were the rebellious church. Oh, yeah. And I talked to pastors. I love, you, you probably heard this too. Well, our insurance won't cover us. Like our insurance won't cover us. Oh gosh. Well, well, there you go, there you go. Yeah, stop ministry, the insurance won't cover us. I said, the early church had no problem with that. Yeah. So yeah, Romans 13, of course, and many churches stayed to close the year in our area. But of course, Romans, the context is, when the government is obviously disobeying God. There you go. And you see abortion clinics, pot shops, street clubs. It's like, okay, that's enough enough. Yeah. Isn't amazing because I petitioned directly, Newsom, to please make a comment, make a public statement, because you notice, you guys remember this, that he declared what was essential and non-essential and he never brought up once the houses of worship. Yeah. So immediately we contacted his office and said, you've got to make a statement. I didn't care what he said. Anyway. You've got to make a statement. His, I viewed it this way, his unwillingness to address houses of worship directly, to me, I viewed that as go time. Yeah. It means that there is something in his life that is a little dimple in his armor. And so I sent him a video saying, we're gonna open with all due respect, sir, allow us to be the church in California, can assist you in some of the great needs. Yes. And all that came to pass, but he did not agree. Yeah, he could have done that so different. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. But listen, you got to, with the time that we have, keep jumping in on this book, everybody needs to get this book because all of us are prone to wanting to quit. So speak to us about how, how did it, at all affect your marriage and these things, you shared a little bit about that. Yeah, do you want to, yeah. Just regarding the hard season. Yeah, I think it can't not when, you know, we joke, he's going through mid-life crisis. I'm starting to go through, you know, the change of life on the, on the woman's side. And so you've got all these things, aside from life, you've got hormones going out of whack. We've got kids growing up. We've got, we had one child, who's horrible too. We had one child later in life that came, you know, at the tail end, so we've got a 20 year old, down to a six year old, and everything in between. And so we've got, you know, teenagers going to a young adulthood and a taught, it was a wild time. And she wanted to go to church all the time. All the time, I didn't want to go to church. I just love, I just want to win. I was done. Can we just get us leaving back and just be there all the time? I don't want to run into people, I don't want some people. So, and then, you know, the other challenges, like I said earlier, losing his mom, COVID, it's really been a few years of just, it's so weird and interesting too, because when you step back and look, it's like, okay, in the grand scheme of life, everything was fine. You know what I mean? Like, people have got it so much harder. I look at other people's trials, and I'm like, we're a bunch of babies over here whining. We are. But then, on the other hand, your trials are your trials, and what the Lord is giving you, and they were very real, and they were real to us. And so, yeah, I mean, I think our marriage was tested in between there, and we joke about, I've said this before, so it's not a surprise, but earlier, when you said something in reference to, oh, in Daniel, I think, like, take them or take me. And so, we've been through times in our marriage where I've said, okay, divorce is not an option because there's no grounds for divorce, but you can take camera, one of us has gotta go. So, I don't care, but Sam, I don't care with me, you gotta take one of us to get us out of this situation. You know, we joke about it now, wasn't funny, way back then. But, I feel like- I feel like- I feel like- For me, during this time, the marriage and the family life with my kids, no big sin, all that was doing really good. My relationship with the Lord was fine. It was the most people. I didn't wanna, me and God are good. Yeah. You know what, I don't know if this speaks into the book or speaks out from your book, but for me, it's taken me forever, and I mean forever. It's taken me, at least, and I, I don't know. It's gotta be 30 years. It's just recently, I have been able to discover this. So, over the years, I would find myself becoming less enthusiastic about the message. Why? I know now, why? Well, that was a very, very hard week. There were, there were the really urgent things that pushed out the important things of my life. So this person died, or my, or our kid had this going on, or a grand kid, this or that or the other. And so, you know, your secretary says, okay, well, you've only got eight hours, this week, sorry, you only got eight hours for Sunday, because this guy died, and they're demanding that you do their funeral unsat, I don't know about you, but Friday and Saturday, I'm a ghost. Nobody sees me, I'm locked down. Well, this is a particular thing. You have to do this, and then you have to do that. And so, for me, that puts, that's put, just puts pressure on me. Because, I mean, I don't mean to be crude about this, but this is how I review this. Instead of me marinating in the word of God with God, because the urgent things of ministry, you know, they choke out the important thing. It's me walking into a room now, say, hey God, sorry, this calendar has been nuts this week, surely you know. So, normally what takes 25 hours, can you give it to me in 10 or in eight? And it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you showing up to Morgan or me showing up to Lisa, and saying, hey, I know it's really been a really busy week, but like, you know, can we get together physically right now for the next five minutes, because I gotta go. How horrible is that? When that happens, it doesn't happen now. But when that happened, I found myself pushing the sermon up the mountain. I found myself not being excited about what I had. I found myself and I coined this phrase to our staff. I said, please pray for me because I feel like my study time has been like licking a rock. Think of the refreshment you get out of licking a rock. I mean, it sucks everything out of your mouth. That said, the next thing I noticed was uncharacteristically, I was becoming irritable with people, short. They didn't know it at first. I'm hiding it, and I'm thinking thoughts like this. Hey, Pastor Chek, you know, I have to talk to you. Can you please pray my aunts? She's had her poodle for 20 years. The poodle died. She lives in New York and I just, and I'm thinking, are you serious right now? Are you serious? You just stopped me to pray for your aunts' poodle in New York. Don't you understand that that person next used dying of cancer? And here I am. This is all going on in my head. And why are smiling saying, sure, I'll pray for you. Yes, of course. Oh, I love poodles too. And the Lord just nailed me. And you any nailed me? I was shocked. He didn't say, you need to really get your heart softened up. Boy, you better repent. You and he said, he said, you're not sabithing. You're not sabithing with me. And man, we've learned. And I want to say I do this perfectly, I don't. But everyone's wired different. Every pastor or Christian worker that's listening to this right now, they need to find their own so to speak groove. But for me, I'm programmed to go 150% and I can do that for about five weeks. And then the sixth week, I have got to have some sort of built in the mountains or for us the beach. I've got to unplug. I've got to not be near a book and not be near my device. I've got to get to that point where it's almost like you're drooling, like you're catatonic almost. And that has been working for me, because even Jesus said to the disciples, come away with me. And that has been something where now when I realize I'm feeling shortness with his flock, with his precious people, it's him tapping me on the shoulder saying, you need to come away with it. It's time. Because from that relationship, everything else flows. You guys are so similar. He just goes 110 miles and over 50, 150. And then, yeah, yeah. But I think the key for takeaway for a lot of the pastors will be get that relationship with the Lord back on track. Get that joy back, repent if warranted. I don't care if you pastor 2200, 2000. Let don't gauge it off that. Gage it off faithfulness. Your pursuit of him and just be thankful. We've got to get that thankful, but bless the Lord on my soul. Bless his holy name, and I got disgruntled of him. Yes, very disgruntled. Sorry, it reminds me what you said in the beginning, when you said talking about strengthening yourself in the Lord. I mean, you've used that in several serenity over the years of, you can't always rely on someone else. Like sometimes you just got to get before the Lord and pull up your pants and strengthen yourself in the Lord and Sabbath and resting your ways to do that. That's right. So Morgan, with the time that we have remaining, what would you say to the pastor's wife? And for those who are in Christian ministry, the wives, what do they need to hear? Yeah, because it's not just pastor. I feel like we've talked about this book can really apply to ministry on any level, or even moms. I mean, how many times do we just want to throw in the towel and go curl up and fetal position and rock and escape? But, you know, like I said earlier, I mean, it sounds so cliche, but it's so true. My best advice is like he said, hang on. Just hang, even if you're barely hanging on, you're pleading, Lord, I can barely hang on. I need you to hang on to me. And he's so faithful, I know it because I've lived it. You get to a point after walking with him for so long that you see his track record over and over. He's brought me through this trial. Oh, he never felt me yet. Oh, he's not going to start now and you just walk it out with him and you see his goodness. But then also, you know, maybe finding a friend outside of the church. I've found as a pastor's life, it feels very lonely. Not in the sense of, I mean, maybe for some, for some in the sense of like their husband's always busy. For me, that's not what I talk, what I mean when I talk about. I mean, it's more of who do you talk to? They're true. You know, who do I talk to? Who are married? They need marriage counseling and I feel like we need marriage. You know, like those types of things, like that. I can't get it. We do that. Yeah. But you know, who do we get to talk to? Because you can't talk to people because your husband's their pastor. It's just a weird dynamic. So maybe finding someone outside of your congregation. Another pastor's wife maybe that you can relate to and just, you know, being able to have dialogue and kind of talk through things that are going to be common only to pastors' wives or ministry wives, you know, maybe worship leaders and things that not everyone's going to understand and you have to get on the same playing field in a sense. I love what you're saying because this almost sounds, I don't know, elite. And I don't mean it to be. But a husband and a wife in the leadership of, say, Apple computer. I'm just picking that, or Google. They have their challenges, obviously. But it's completely different in ministry. And for those who are thinking, right? How many times have you seen this? For those who are really good in corporate stuff and they come to pastor Shane and they say, you ought to hire me because I'm really good. I can be on staff because, you know, I'm this in that at Google or Cisco doesn't translate. They can be the star employee, right? At SpaceX and you think, wow, this person's skill sets their ability to speak is amazing. Well, you know, we'll make them an assistant pastor. Three months later, they fall completely on their face and they're the ones who tell you the truth of it. It is this. Man, I've addressed some of the biggest corporate wheels in Silicon Valley and I had no idea that being in a church is impossibly more difficult. What's like, I'll never understand what it is to be a firewife. Like the, you know, the wives who I hear who are wives of firemen and their husbands are gone and all that. I'll never fully understand that in a way that only they can because they're living it. Other people aren't going to fully understand where we're coming from because we're the ones living. And it's not a job, it's a calling. And because it's a calling, Cisco's a job vocation. Ministry calling is a divine appointment from heaven above. It doesn't work without his power. The world says, we need to build you up so you can do more for us. Jesus says, I need to break you down so I can do more through you. It's a completely opposite kingdom. And the amazing thing is, is that, as influential as Apple might be in the world, Apple's not fighting the principalities and powers of the Satanic world. We do it every day. And Apple's, you know, I'm not taking any thing away from secular business, but there's a high probability that your kids are not under or in the sights of Satan. Every pastor's kids are targeted by the dark world. I remember 25 years ago when I came back to Laurie, I read about, you know, reading Spurgeon, you know, lectures to my students. So I, remember one of the lines he said, he said, if you can do anything else, do it. I'm like, oh, it must have been kind of hard back in the 1800s. You know, it must have been hard back then. And then boy, do you live, you know exactly, I tell my kids all the time, if you do anything else, do it. Don't even get in the ministry unless God calls. He's calling the kids. That's the only anchor. That's it, yeah. A couple of other things that come to mind is when you guys are talking about the criticism and different things, I'd really encourage the pastor's wife to not allow her heart to become bitter and critical. Because sometimes we hear so much against you guys, you know, that I have tended to have to repent really and take my thoughts captive on my thinking towards people. And just to say, just to stay soft and tender. And you know, sometimes, I mean, there's been times I said in there too, where I'm like, okay, so let me get this straight. You want my husband on call 24 hours a day, missing family function, this sat in the other, and then you're gonna go pop off on Facebook and on a comment like, you know, so I've really had to, oh, you know what, Lauren? I love these, and we have an amazing congregation. I mean, you probably feel the same. Like ours is the best congregation. And you think yours is, you know, but we really do. But yeah, just areas that we have to be conscious of, I think as we go through and that mama bear can kind of come out and like, okay, no, let's stay soft, let's stay humble and thankful and trying to see people for where they're at, you know, everyone who's criticizing has issues going on. It really wasn't the people of our church, it was me. I mean, like, we have a great people, it wasn't, yeah. I can't really, you're the worst. But I mean, generally, yeah. And then, also the family, just protecting the family, like you'll never go wrong, you know, your family's your first ministry and making sure that your family being the last thing I ever want is for one of our five kids to walk away because they didn't want ministry because of what they saw in us. Or they didn't want God because of what they saw in us. So trying to find that balance of keeping that first but also doing ministry well. That brought me back because the example I'm leaving, oh, that just wants to quit. This is how you, when God, when ministry gets hard, this is how you press in. So what a great lesson, wasn't it? I've been through this, I've been through hell and back emotionally and other, but this is how you press in and get anchor to God and watch this spirit. You can, now Jeremiah, his words in my heart, like a burning fire out of your body will flow rivers of living water. Many people don't know what that is, but what you do, what you drink and drink deeply of that well of Christ and have been broken by him. It's just, it's just this incredible relationship. And I've had it before, but I lost it for a season because, you know, there's no doubt about it that the ministry is draining and the challenges is to keep as the temple period, keep the fire burning. And I love the comfort where the Lord says to us, a smoking flax, right? He will not extinguish that little ember, nor will he break a bruised reed. Because that totally announces to us, you have to be a nut, nut to get it, that our lives are bent reeds. And there are times when we are just a smoldering wick and he will rekindle and he will strengthen. But to do that, it has to be impossible and it has to be miraculous. And that's where he shows up and... And that's the best thing, because we wouldn't want. I mean, if we didn't have face to trials, if we were doing everything and we could just do it in our own power, what's the point? And there's no need for him, you know, it's... And it goes on, I mean, what we've been talking about a little bit, but of course the power of prayer and that the prayer closet again, recapturing that time with the Lord. I mean, you talked about it too. That's the key, the power closet, the prayer closet is the power closet. And that's where you get that anointing back and that unchimp back and that relationship back. And so I think God used it to push me down even lower into that time of seeking him. Yeah, this is amazing. You just said, I know we have to wrap this up, but we can go on forever. It's interesting because people will say, oh, God, I need to be better at prayer. I need to pray more. I need to really develop my prayer life and God says, oh, great. You're ready. Here's how it happens. I'm going to send you a trial and then when it comes, you go, well, wait a minute. Now that's exactly what you're asking for because this is how it comes about. And so it's amazing. So, well, you know, I do want to let people know we actually have it available as a free download. I mean, of course, it's on Amazon, but it's a free download. How does that happen? How does that happen? At our church website, WestsideChristianPhiloship.org, free eBooks, all my books are free books. So they can click it, read it right now for free. We want to make sure we offer that to all the pastors. That's amazing. That is awesome. That's the best spot. So WestsideChristian Fellowship, free downloads. Yep. Wow, that's amazing. No, please everybody, get your hands on this book, especially now that the price is right. Zero. And it just doesn't have to be limited to ministry because it's really speaking to those times in our lives when we just feel like giving up. Maybe it's a marriage and people are saying, I'm done with this marriage. And so listen, the good thing about being a believer is that we do not have the permission to make decisions for ourselves, right? We have to consult him. We have to follow his lead. And so, man, first of all, I love our friendship, Shane. Yes, thank you. And you mean everything to me? You're a brother that I never have to look back over my shoulder to see how he might be doing. That's true. You are just plotting along. Like, Warren Wresby's book, In Praise of Plotters, over all these decades, I've never had to worry about Shane Eidelman going backwards or saying something that is off. You are a man steadfast and you honor the Lord Jesus. You have not denied his name and it's awesome. And Morgan, thank you because I know we know that without our wives, we would have given up a long time ago or even worse. And so you guys are dear to us. I thank you for that, but I want to remind people too, you have to hold to the foundation that I would, Shane Eidelman would fell next week if it were up to me. So true. It's that anchor of that relation with Christ, pursuing him regardless. Though he slain me while I trust him, I think it's my life verse one of them because Lord, where am I going to go? Yeah. I love you. To you. Yeah. Get that call, stage four. That's right. You know, cancer is still has to love you, you know? That's right. Thank you, we appreciate your mystery. Your actually, your ministry has helped us stay the course as well, so it works both ways. It's the body of Christ coming together. Amen. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you.