Should I Stay or Go

00:00 - Speaker 1
Real Life presents the Jack Hibbs Podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture.

00:09 - Speaker 2
Hey, do you go to a church that God is saying not to go to? Or are you going to a church that you're wondering should you be attending at all? Does God want you there? How can you know? Is God speaking to you? Let's find out. Let's dive into church. Does it have a head Church? Is it pleasing God Church? Is it really? Let's go.

00:35 - Speaker 1
You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to https://jackhibbs.com/podcast Today. If this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five-star ratings. To us that's like saying amen or yes. Then that rating will encourage others to listen Now open your hearts to what God's Word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs.

01:04 - Speaker 2
Well, hey, everybody, welcome to this podcast today, glad to have you with us. And somebody asked me not too long ago how come we don't sell product, how come we don't have sponsors? They have a podcast and they have product and they have sponsors, and I don't know the answer to that. I just thought it was kind of funny, because I have my mug but we don't sell them. This is just a white t-shirt. Yeah, it's no brand, no, it's just us. No flash, no bang. But I'll do something different today.

01:40
This is kind of interesting because we don't I don't know if we've ever done this we're responding, I'm going to be responding to a letter that was written to us, which was, honestly, a letter that represents many, many times this question. Our particular church, this particular ministry, has, by the grace of God, a very long reach. When I say long, I mean out into the world. And so people write to us, or they call us, or they let us know that they have these circumstances or these issues going on in their spiritual journey, wherever they may be, however they may be, wherever they may be, however they may be. And this one, it was a three-page letter by a very sweet couple who they were asking the question after they had made a statement, and their statement was this that we, from afar, from a distance, we tithe to a particular ministry, we also tithe to this other particular ministry and to another ministry, and they actually threw a fourth one in, which shocked us, only later to find out that they said. Only later to find out that they said, oh, ps, we were joking about supporting that guy, because the guy is a charlatan, in my opinion.

03:11
So, listen, this is a great thing to kick around everybody, because if you go to a church, I have to ask you listen, if you go to a church, why do you go? Can we just kind of do this right now? So, if you go to a church, why do you go? And you want to write that down, why do I attend the church that I attend? You need to write it down and it's going to be, by the way, the first thought that comes to your mind. Number two should I be going to this church? That should be the second question. By the way, the first question is going to have a lot to do with the second question. By the way, the first question is going to have a lot to do with the second question. And then the third thing is do I support this church? Should I support it? Should I give my tithes and my offerings, my efforts, my service, my attention to this church, whatever church it may be?

04:07
We, ever since COVID, have been asked this question more than I can count, and so here I wrote down, by the way, some of the most common responses when this question is asked of us. This is what we hear it's the church that we've always gone to. It's the church that we've always gone to. Okay, time out. That means literally nothing. Why would that play into anything of significance?

04:38
Number one the book of Colossians tells us that a church needs to make sure that Christ is the head of that church. Now, if Jesus is the head of the church that you attend, you're going to be answering the question with I attend that church because I'm growing like crazy, there's ministry opportunity, the word of God instructs me, convicts me, rebukes me, develops me, and all these check boxes which, by the way, we should probably make a how to find a church check box list, because it's not easy in this day and age to find a church. It's very. It's become difficult, sad to say say but anyway, you'd want to do this diagnostic, okay, on why do you attend the church that you attend? And these are some of the answers that do not work. Our family, my grandpa, attended this church, my parents attended this church and I was born in the hallway of the church. That's not an answer. It was irrelevant. The answer must be you attend the church because of what I said earlier. You're growing, you're challenged.

05:58
The Word of God is alive. The worship is focused on Jesus, not on people. It is praise and not performance. It is worship and not, you know, people-centric. The Word of God is relevant. This is one of the greatest signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit in a church where the Word of God is taught, the Word, even though it's Genesis 1.1 or Exodus 15 or Jude 1, it is going to be relevant. This is what's so amazing about our God, who is alive and well and so is His Word, that when we deliver the Bible, simply the Bible, the relevance of the message being delivered to the flock will speak to people from all walks of life, from different skin pigmentations to different financial levels and irregardless of age.

07:09
Where you give a message or your pastor gives the sermon to the congregation and an eight-year-old gets something out of it that's meaningful, meaty, and so does the 88-year-old. It's a miracle. Same in the way of an evangelistic message there are eight-year-olds who get up and come forward and there's 88-year-olds that get up and come forward. How do you do that? Listen, you can't do that in the mall. You can't have a store that does that. Nobody. No, eight-year-old walks into Nordstrom's and buys shoes, like the 88-year-old does. Listen, there's a lane that Nordstrom's is, you know, working on and selling to, and at least in here we have places like Jack's Surf Shop. I don't own it. I wish places like Jack's Serve Shop. I don't own it. I wish Jack's Serve Shop. It caters to a certain genre and age.

08:09
But all these stories? You know what I'm talking about. But the church? How is it that the church can affect so many people in one sermon, from all walks of life and of all ages? How is that the Holy Spirit's in charge? He'll exalt the Lord, jesus Christ, and he'll use the word of God. And the pastor may be speaking. You hear his voice. But it's obvious that what's happening is supernatural. Because you just brought your friend as a hypothetical and your friend might be struggling with homosexuality. You bring your friend to church and the Bible study is on Genesis 1-1, or Romans chapter 12, or Revelation chapter 4. It has nothing to do with homosexuality, but the pastor's teaching, and there'll be something that comes out where your homosexual-tempted friend will say man, you know what that sermon today? Gosh, I felt like the guy was, like I was the only one in the room. That's the Holy Spirit.

09:08
Do you go to a church like that? If you don't go to a church like that, it's probably time for you to leave. Why? Because there's more to this than what meets the eye. Somebody might say gosh, we went to this church for years. We couldn't stand it, but our kids loved it. Not a good reason. Not a good reason because the same God that equips the adults will be the same God that will work in children's ministry to equip the kids. In other words, avoid a church that babysits your kids on a Sunday with candy canes or lollipops and Bible stories. I know I'm going to get hate mail for this, but it's just tough.

09:52
I do not believe that children should be taught Bible stories and I think kids should never be told that they're going to hear another Bible story, because so often stories are not real. Jack and the Beanstalk is a story. Okay, santa Claus is a story. And your kids are going to grow up thinking Jesus is a story, that Noah was just a story, and so they won't believe the Bible. Listen, the church should be focused on truly creating disciples. And think of the. I mean, just think how smart this is, pastor. You don't know these adults you're speaking to. You don't even know if they're listening to you. By the time they get into the main sanctuary they can lie just sitting there looking at you because they're off into la-la land Kids. Man, I was told by Pastor Chuck Smith personally. I said I don't think I can do this.

10:55
When our home Bible study was just growing gangbusters, I was freaking out because I didn't want to leave my career and I was trying to hand the home group over to somebody else at the time and I was talking to Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, costa Mesa, at the time and he said didn't you teach five-year-olds at second service? And I said yes, and he said if you can teach five-year-olds, you can teach adults. There's a lot of truth to that. If you can hold the attention of a five-year-old, you can hold the attention of adults. The amazing thing about five-year-olds is that they're actually easier to teach Because, even though they don't look like they're listening, they're not missing a word. We know this, and so we make sure that our children's ministry and youth ministries are absolutely top shelf are absolutely top shelf, in fact, so much so that even the youngest ages at our church are taught, they're introduced to Christian apologetics. I'm not kidding, we have an apologetic course for our elementary aged kids and, of course, by the time they get to junior, high and high school, these kids are pretty much able to step into a pulpit somewhere and deliver a message that most people don't get from a pastor out of some university.

12:10
I'm not joking, and if you've ever visited here, you know exactly what I mean. The next thing is well, we attend because all of our friends are there. I mean, our social network is at the church that we attend. We could never say goodbye to our friends. That's very sweet and very kind, but is it possible that God is stirring up your heart and their heart also, and you don't know it Because you guys have not talked about it? What if God is calling you and a whole bunch out of that place? Why don't you say something to somebody If they're your friends, why don't you say something to somebody If they're your friends? Why don't you ask them hey, have you been growing under these sermons these last six months or 12 months? Ask your friends that If they say well, you know the pastor's gone through a lot of stuff lately that has nothing to do with it.

13:01
You know the pastor, he hasn't been as funny as normal. That has nothing to do with it. You know the pastor, he hasn't been as funny as normal. That has nothing to do with it. It would be evident that the Holy Spirit does not have freedom to work. That's what's going on and you need to honestly say gosh, I love my friends, but spiritually I got to stand before God for our spiritual growth as a family or as an individual yeah, my friends are here. Growth as a family or as an individual yeah, my friends are here. But listen, you can get together and go with them to watch the Rams play the goats or whoever the angels play the devils. You can do that with them.

13:37
But to stay at a church because the church stinks, but you stay there because your friends are there, that's displeasing. Listen, jesus is the head of the church. So far, I'm describing a headless church. What about this? And I actually had somebody tell me this. I am not kidding. I wish I was kidding you, pastor. Jack, we would love to come to the church that you pastor, but I have the opportunity, at the church that we're at, to lead the worship and the teaching's messed up. It's a mess. I don't believe it. I can't stand it. It's crazy. But I get to lead the are an opportunist and I'm going to ask you to repent of it because you it's like you being some performer in Hollywood and you can't stand the owner of you know some club and you hate the club and you hate the people. The owner of some club and you hate the club and you hate the people that attend the club. But you'll go and sing or play at that club because they'll give you the audience and they'll pay you a nickel, but you go because you get the stage. That's sick.

15:01
Listen, there are people who are involved in worship, who lead worship at a church that they don't believe in. That's not worship. It was never worship. It's not worship now. It's fraudulent. Because your heart's not in the right place, because your heart's not in the ministry, and you say well, jack, I can't get into the ministry, I can't get into it. It's off base. Get out Trust God. Didn't God give you that gift? Or is it just a human talent? If you have to be on stage to satisfy your carnal pursuit of feeling or being important, look, if I have to be on stage to be a pastor teaching on camera, I'm sick. That is wrong. But listen, if God has called you to be a worship leader, god is going to lead you to a church that you can believe in and a leadership team that you love and they love you.

15:54
And then it comes down to this. The question that this couple asked was where should we give our money? We attend a church. We don't really like it, so we're sending a little bit to this guy we like and get ministered to on TV, same with the other guy and same with the other guy, but our own church should we leave? And they made it more complex, which is often the situation is we don't believe in the church that we attend. We not only have friends there, but we have been basically detoxing our friends from the ministry. God has been using us to wash away what they're being taught in the church and so it's kind of a ministry. Now this makes it tough, doesn't it?

17:06
For me to answer you in this situation should you leave or should you stay is not for me to respond. Let me explain. No man can give you the answer. Hear me out. If I tell you what I'm thinking, I would be an error because I would need to get more information from you and, to be honest with you, it'd have to be really convincing for me to say, yep, you should stay there. In other words, I would need to see true fruit of the Holy Spirit using your covert ministry to rescue people from this church of the crazy.

17:49
Okay, if some pastor told you black and white yep, right now you stay there or yep, right now, you go, I would be a little leery of that response. It's not that cut and dried that response. It's not that cut and dried. If you can absolutely believe that the two of you have been led by God to stay, then he's going to give you the passion and the confirmation and the peace to stay at it, even though it's a goofball church. Okay, even though it's a goofball church, okay.

18:25
If you don't have peace, if it keeps nagging on you that you should leave, then you need to obey God, and I'm not going to tell you which one he's saying to you, because nobody knows except you guys. You guys need to ask the Lord do we go or do we stay? Lord, if you want us to stay, give us overwhelming peace and confidence. Give us, show us that this is our ministry mission. If you don't show us that, then increase the uneasiness. Grant us discernment so that we leave here, and friends with this.

19:10
Also, I would say to your brothers and sisters hey, you guys, we've got to be moving on. We love you, brothers and sisters. Hey, you guys, we've got to be moving on. We love you. And how about us getting together on Thursday nights at the house? And we'd love to meet with you, but we're not coming here to the First Baptocostal Church of Mozambique, we're just not coming. We'd love to see you on Thursday nights at our house, coffee, bible, fellowship. Yeah, it'd be great, it's a possibility.

19:49
But listen, I'm telling you right now. I'm not going to tell you what to do. Jesus will tell you what to do. Both of you love the Lord. Your letter was awesome and you're really searching. You really want to do God's will and I'm encouraging you to do what he says. He'll tell you, and you know what's fun about it. He'll tell both of you. It won't be lopsided.

20:09
Amos 3.3 says how can two walk together unless they be in agreement? The Lord's going to speak to the two of you, and so that issue that came up also in the letter was the issue of where do we tithe? You know, is this right to tithe to ministries that we get fed by, spiritually instructed in the word? But they're miles and miles, if not states and states, away. It's completely fine to support ministries that feed you. I do believe that we're supposed to do that. If we are being instructed, built up, edified, educated and equipped for the ministry as a believer, then you should support that or those ministries. But if the ministry in your neighborhood is not doing that, I could not give God's money that's in my account or my pocket to a work that he's not involved in. Does that make sense? If he's not there, then why give them money? See, listen and I have to end with this Christians should never think about money as being money.

21:31
Christians, especially pastors, especially board members, should never, no way, no way do I want people in leadership, starting with me, that focus on money. The moment people start getting interested in money, it starts with them seeing it. The wrong way Comes out like this that's all it costs, let's get two. Or it costs that much, we can't do that. We can never justify that. It costs that much, we can't do that. We can never justify that. Wait it's. Oh, we don't have enough money to do the children's camp, for example. All these things are real comments that people make. But where's it coming from? In Christian ministry, we should never refer to money as green dollar bills. I learned this lesson years ago. This might be TMI, too much information, but it's a lesson I learned with Jesus and I've never forgotten it and I've passed it on to others. And it's this.

22:37
It was in the early 1990s. I'd gotten a group of people together to respond to a need to start churches in Russia. The Soviet Union had just broken up and the government of the Soviet Union whatever government was opened the door for American churches to plant churches in Russia. We responded within months to that request. We were somewhere over the North Atlantic.

23:05
I was sitting on an Air France flight with about 25 other people from our church and I started thinking, because each and every one of them had paid their own way and it wasn't cheap. And I was thinking what am I doing? These people are going to give a week and a half of their time. They're taking their vacation time from work. They're paying for themselves 100%. That's so much money and I felt God. I didn't hear God. I felt God say would it make you feel any better if I told you that it's not money, it's tools, the resources that got these people on this plane heading to Moscow. It's all tools for the building of the kingdom. God showed my heart. He doesn't look at it as dollars. He doesn't look at it as currency. God looks at what we call money as tools in building.

24:16
I got to tell you, because I'm such a tightwad, I would skimp and save, I would put stuff in envelopes. I mean, I'm like a squirrel packing nuts somewhere. I grew up stashing money in books and in places and labeled this is for that. And I was just like a nut, a nut, a crazy person. I don't like to spend money, but God had to heal me of that when it came to his church. It's listen, it's his church, those are his tools, it's his gospel and these are his people and I am a sheepdog in that work, and so that's so revolutionized me.

25:04
By the time we had left Los Angeles to Moscow, I was converted regarding this argumentation, and so beware of ministries that get all goo-goo-eyed about money, for example. I'm not faulting, I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just saying this is how it works. In the ministry that I've been pastoring for 36 years now, we have never once asked for money. We've never once had a thermometer, a building fund, never.

25:36
I won't do it, because if God is leading the vision, it's up to him to fund it. If God needs us to fund his work, then something's very, very wrong. It's probably not his work. We're funding some committee's idea. I'd get away from that. If God is in it, god will provide for it and he will invite you to participate, but he's going to get it done with or without you. Why? Because it's tools. But the moment you start looking at it as dollars, you're going to get sideways goofy.

26:12
Jesus said it's hard You'll either serve God or mammon. I know exactly what he meant by that. And so your money, your time, your effort, your breath, your body, your influence, your witness they're all tools for the building of the kingdom. So you need to use those wisely, because every single one of those areas I just mentioned, you and I will give an account to God on the day of judgment regarding them. So just because you attended that church forever doesn't mean you're supposed to stay. Just because you're being used doesn't mean you're supposed to stay. Just because you have friends or kids that enjoy it, it doesn't mean you're supposed to stay. Then, what does determine if I'm supposed to stay? God telling you to stay? That's the answer. Listen, as always, it's what we believe in. It's time for you and I to live out what we believe in. It's time for real life.

27:10
And if this is a blessing to you guys, can you go to either the podcast app or whatever it might be on your device? Can you give us a thumbs up? Can you give us a like or a comment? Because, in the AI world, it sees that our people are engaging and responding and it moves the conversation up the food chain. And why do I say that? Well, because we want more people to hear truth. That's it. That's it. So help us along. We can partner in this together. Why? Because this microphone, this camera and the device that you're viewing this on right now is a tool for you and I to get the gospel out and to make disciples of all people. So until next time, god bless you so very much into this new year, amen.

28:08 - Speaker 1
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