When The Culture Hates You

00:00 - Speaker 1 Real Life presents the Jack Hibbs Podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture. 00:09 - Speaker 2 Everybody with us on this podcast. We have Natasha Crane, an excellent author, and she has written a book that you're going to not only want to hear about, but you are going to want to buy it. You're going to want to buy a copy for others. And, spoiler alert, you might want to read the back of the book before you read the front end of the book, because, well, stay tuned, you'll find out why. 00:32 - Speaker 1 You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to https://jackhibbs.com slash podcast Today. If this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, if this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five-star ratings. To us that's like saying amen or yes. Then that rating will encourage others to listen. Now open your hearts to what God's Word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. 01:02 - Speaker 2 Well, hey, listen, welcome to this special edition of our podcast together, the Jack Gibbs podcast, and we thank you so much. You are the reason why this has been growing. I got to tell you, as an old guy, I'm blown away. So many of our viewers are younger and that makes me so very happy. And you can expand that. You can expand the influence that we can team up together and by you sharing this and making comment available would be great. So, listen, today we have with us, I would say, a modern day. For me, she's a modern day Deborah. The church needs Deborah's today, and that is the princess, warrior, the judge, deborah in the Bible, who knew the word of God and knew the spirit of the Lord and what to do. And so Natasha Crane is with us. And, natasha, I'll just say a few things, but please fill in the blanks. If I remember right, you're the author now. Is this your fifth or your sixth book? Will this be the fifth book? This is the fifth. This is the fifth book. So you're not sitting around, you're not kicking back. 02:06 Everything that you write is stimulating, and I mean this in a good way. It's cerebral meaning. It's not that it's so hard, I can't understand it, it means that you are. You remind me of authors that lived 100 or 200 years ago, because you do not dumb things down, you bring us up to a level of intellect and thought process, which I think the Word of God does, that I think when the Lord spoke to Peter and he said that we need to be able to give an answer for the reason, for the hope that is within us. And so I love how you write. And you know I have to confess to you guys, and you know, I have to confess to you guys, I'm very biased toward her books, because she says things that I think she writes things that I agree with, and isn't that kind of how life goes anyway? And so, natasha, tell us more about who you are before we get into the nuts and bolts of this latest book. 03:05 - Speaker 3 Yeah well, first, thank you so much for the kind words. I really appreciate that. Well, I'm a mom and a wife. I have three kids, three teenagers, so it's fun, fun time. Wow, twins who are 16, who both just got their driver's licenses, so that's a lot of fun and stress at the same time and also a 14-year-old. And I live here in Southern California, about 45 minutes away from you, so it's a pleasure to get to come and talk to you in person. And yeah, so this is my fifth book and I've been writing for about 10 years now, and you kind of traffic with some other mutual friends of ours, don't you? 03:39 - Speaker 2 You guys kind of get together and pull something off. Of course I'm alluding to you and getting together with Frank Turek and what you guys do. What is that gathering called? I know we had it here once the Unshaken Conference, the Unshaken Conference. Can people get those? Can they view those messages online? 03:58 - Speaker 3 They're not online, but we have four new conferences this year, so it's Frank Turek and Elisa Childers and myself, and so we've done eight dates over the last two years, and now we're doing all new content over the course of this year. Our next one is in Albuquerque on the first week in April, and then we're going to Oahu the first week in May. 04:16 - Speaker 2 That's a great, great location. 04:17 - Speaker 3 Somebody has to go there, so we decided it would be us, and then later this year we're going to be in Dallas and San Clemente. 04:23 - Speaker 2 Now are you already booked up for the year? 04:26 - Speaker 3 regarding this those four dates, yes, but we'll continue in 2026. 04:31 - Speaker 2 So is this something that you guys set or can like? If a ministry is watching this right now, how do they or do they have the opportunity to say, hey, can you come in 2026?, Can you come to our location? 04:41 - Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. If you go to the site, it's unshakenconferencecom. When you go there, there's a form that you can fill out to request bringing the conference to your church. 04:53 - Speaker 2 And it's awesome, you guys, because it is in the area of apologetics. For those of you who are not familiar with that term, that doesn't mean that they go around the nation and apologize for being a Christian. It's that they give argumentation and logic and reason as to why being a believer makes absolute sense. In fact, we believe it makes the only sense. And so your latest book this is awesome because I want to just jump into this and you can see I got things highlighted because I was going through this and all. But I want to ask you what was the genesis of you writing this book? The genesis of you writing this book? And then I want to ask you behind that, if you would, what is your hope? What is your takeaway? What do you want to see? 05:34 - Speaker 3 people get out of this excellent work of yours. Yeah, so my last book, if I start there, is called Faithfully Different and the subtitle was Regaining Biblical Clarity in a Secular Culture, and the purpose of that book was really to help Christians just kind of distinguish better between what a biblical worldview is and what a secular worldview is, and so it has a very positive sound right Faithfully different Everyone wants to be faithfully different. People like that idea. But as I started going out and talking to people speaking at conferences like Unshaken, and speaking at churches that I get out and talk to, what I was finding is that people were overwhelmingly feeling this increasing hostility and culture. I heard story after story about how people were being cut off by family members, a lot of parents being cut off by their kids. They're being cut off by their friends in a lot of cases. Some people were losing jobs. Some people had trouble getting jobs in the first place because it was hard to find a job that would fit within their beliefs, and so as I heard this over time, I realized there is really a sense of okay, now that I have a biblical worldview, I don't like what's happening in response to that right, and so I started to realize. 06:37 I think that somebody needs to kind of break down the hostility more to understand hey, this is the expectation that we need to have in today's culture. It's going to be like this because I think Christians have had the wrong expectations for too long. We've thought that being a Christian means being nice, and if people are happy with you and if they like you, if you're over here with your clear biblical worldview, then everything's going to be okay. But I think what we're seeing increasingly is that that's not the reality of it, and so, as people are starting to see this hostility arise, I wanted to break it down, analyze it, kind of say, hey, this is why this is where the hostility is coming from, but then also go to the next step of saying, yes, this is the reality of the situation, but that doesn't mean to be quiet, so there's less hostility. This is hostility we need to come to terms with and then be salt and light and then pursue the common good in our culture. So that's really how I came about writing the book. 07:32 - Speaker 2 You answer that as clearly as you write and that's beautiful, perfect. This has been something so much on my heart because if you were to stop and ask any of the various staff members that are in the ministries that we have, if you were to stop and ask any of the various staff members that are in the ministries that we have, if you were to ask them, what has Pastor Jack been saying over these last five years, maybe six years? And it's been this and it's pre-COVID. I shared with them a struggle that I was having with the Lord in my private time, where I became and I think it was just a divine intervention of God where I became disgruntled with myself that I wasn't that I wasn't to use the term hated or disliked by the world enough. I felt almost as though I was letting God down. And yet, at the same time, you can't go out and be obnoxious to make people hate you. That's evil. But I really struggled with Lord. If I love you, you just said in John's gospel to me that if I love you, I shouldn't be surprised that the world hates me because they hated you first. But Lord, I don't see that happening. I, you know, I get excuse me. I get pats on the back on a Sunday or a Wednesday or at a conference, and I don't like that. I want to. I want to be able to, to make sure that I'm making a difference. 08:55 And so when, when I was struggling through that, like a year after that, then COVID happened and then we took a stand to keep the church open and speak the truth and rescue people. And then it just went from one social crisis to the next, from the COVID thing to what was being taught to our kids in school regarding LBGTQ plus, and then now the transgender mutilation stuff, and then now Israel being a nation. Is the Jew a viable individual? What in the world's going on here? All of these things where we became very much hated. And in that I found great peace, natasha, because it wasn't that I was looking for blood in the water to get punched in the nose. That's sadistic, that's sick. 09:44 What happened was the angst and the criticism against me is what was being levied against Jesus in the Word of God, and in the midst of rejection, right in the midst of hatred, I found great peace and comfort because I knew that I was on his side and there was a sweet can I say association with him that I've now come to cherish, and so I'm very leery about beware, as the Lord said beware when all men speak well of you. And so that's a fine line we walk as a Christian, isn't it? Because the one whom we follow is the most loved individual on the planet. At the same time, he's the most hated individual on the planet, and so your book is such a great, great lesson and guidance system to navigate this world. I love how you stress numerous times that we need to come to grips with the fact that the truth is offensive to those who don't want truth. Can you just talk more about that? Speak to our audience on that. 10:50 - Speaker 3 Right, and I love what you're saying about how I gave you a comfort to know that this was exactly what Jesus said. This is why it's so important for us to know what Jesus said that if the world hates, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. So, yeah, absolutely. I'm sorry. I just want to comment on that. What was your question again? No, no, no, it's good. 11:09 - Speaker 2 Truth. I love how you, throughout the book it's woven throughout your book Truth. This is so great because people will think even churches will say well, you know, the greatest thing that we could do is have unity. Have you know? The greatest thing that we could do is have unity, have unity. I get very leery when I hear that, because usually when someone talks about unity they're talking about you and I compromising even truth to get to the unity table. And yet truth can never be compromised. They'll never be unity without truth, right? So explain to us more about how the very truth of God, by nature, must be offensive. 11:51 - Speaker 3 The truth of God is always going to be offensive to people because, ultimately, if you are a person who's not living for God, if you're not a child of God, your authority for life, for truth, for knowing what's good and bad and harmful and helpful, right and wrong, your authority is yourself. That's what it comes down to. Everybody has an authority for those things. So it's either going to be you or it's going to be God. And so when you tell people the truth about what God said, what he's revealed specifically in the Bible, they're going to be offended by that, because you're telling them basically, you're no longer the boss. You don't get to determine what's true. It's actually someone else, it's actually someone who is external to you, and people don't like that. And I think it's so interesting because if you look at the research on religious trends in America today, what you see is that the vast majority of people do believe in a God in some kind of God concept. 12:41 In fact it's about 90% believe in some kind of God or higher power. But when you look at the worldview research, when you just don't ask people, how do you identify yourself or what do you believe about God, but actually ask what people believe very specifically about who God is and about the nature of truth and these kinds of things, dr George Barna has found that those numbers look like about 4%. About 4% of people have a biblical worldview. So what does that tell us? It tells us that lots of people love the idea of a God, but they don't love the idea of a God who has revealed himself specifically in scripture, because now we have a basis for knowing confidently who God is and who we are and what's our relationship, what's required of us. People don't like that. They don't want to know that there's a specific God. Culture is completely fine with a generic God who requires nothing, but is very offended by a specific God who requires everything. 13:38 And that's ultimately why truth is so offensive to people. It's an authority issue why truth is so offensive to people. It's an authority issue. 13:45 - Speaker 2 It's amazing to me because when Paul is waiting for the ministry team to show up, he's waiting for them in Athens he walks up the avenue I call it the avenue of the gods where all of these various deities are enshrined in statue form, and he's taking it all in and he's realizing oh my goodness, man, this location, this Mars Hill, this is the epicenter of all worship, of all gods or whatever they may be. And then, of course, paul goes into Acts 17,. What he says about that? What's amazing is nobody can deny Archeology, sociology, whatever their discipline might be, nobody can deny that man is amoral. Man is very I say moral. Man seeks some form of morality, and to do that he's got to attribute a deity or deities to this. In other words, I guess what I'm saying is, when you look at the gods that are represented at Mars Hill or anywhere else in the world, there are always gods that man creates that will give him license to do what he wants to do. So if I don't want the Judeo-Christian biblical God of the Bible, I'm going to make up a cult or occult God or gods that approve of my desires, and so I will carve this image like it is, because that's what I want to do. What's amazing to me is people they know this, you can study this, you can get degrees in this and never come to the knowledge of the truth that if all of these people worship all of these various different gods, wouldn't it make sense to dial down on the fact that they all can't be right? Okay, so if there's this one God who actually makes declarations and statements that he's so unique that you can put him to the test and be proven, I'm a big fan. 15:47 People will take issue with this. There will be those who will say they always say it to you, I know, and Frank and your team well, you can't prove the existence of God. I actually believe you can, and I think that's why Bible prophecy is so tragically, so neglected in so many areas. But people are afraid of it. I don't know why, but Bible prophecy 33% of the Bible is prophetic in nature. I think it proves the existence of God, among many other things. But it's this one who says, out of space and time this is who you are, jack, this is what you're like and you're lost. I'm here to tell you, like a good doctor. You're lost. You need me. He's honest. He tells you the truth. It hurts, it cuts to the heart and this is where people, in my opinion, just flame out. 16:40 When you say he is the Savior, people get offended at that. Wait, did you say Jesus is Savior? What are you implying? I'm not implying anything. I'm telling you he's the Savior. We're the sinners Saviors. Save. He's the one and only Savior. We need saving the gospel. Now you write about it so well. 17:05 The gospel is so offensive. It's so offensive because if it's the good news, it implies that I might be messed up with bad news. If he is God, then I'm not Right. If I need a Savior, then that means I'm lost and I'm greatly offended. How dare you? That means I'm lost and I'm greatly offended. How dare you? 17:28 And so we're getting down now to the age of the church where just preaching the gospel, so many pastors will say I just preach the gospel. Sometimes I wonder if they do, because if they're preaching the unadulterated gospel, the first word of the gospel is actually the same word that Jesus said. It's the same word that Paul said, it's the same word that Peter said. And it is so offensive. It is repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. People will not get past the word repent because it implies that they're not thinking right. They need to change their mind, and your book addresses issues. Give us some of the examples of things that you take on that challenge the status quo, the modern day popular way of thinking. You come along, natasha Crane, and you say wait a minute, you've got to understand something. Explain some of the PowerPoints to your chapters. 18:22 - Speaker 3 Well, the first half of the book is really geared toward helping people understand the subtitle of the book, which is Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. So that's really important because I think that we kind of have this Christian ease in the church about salt and light and I sometimes wonder do we even know what salt and light is? You know it's on a t-shirt, it's a conference title, like we hear this all the time, but have we really dug into what that looks like, especially in the midst of hostility? And so really the first half of the book is geared at understanding what Jesus said about the world hating us, so that we can take comfort in that, as you talked about earlier, but then digging into this concept of the common good. What does what does that mean? 19:02 In society? Christians are very confused about what is actually good, because we're confused about theology a lot of times when you're talking about how no one wants to hear the bad news and we don't want to hear that we need a savior. The majority of self-identified Christians, according to research, actually believe people are basically good. So we don't even get this right. It's a problem in house, it's not just out there. And so we have to really get clear on understanding what is good, in a sense of using God as the standard of good and not what everyone else in culture uses that term to mean. And I think that's really difficult for a lot of Christians to get our head around, because when people say, hey, you're actually harmful, you're toxic, your views are hurting people, we think, man, we're hurting people, but we're not if we're using God's standards for determining what is good. So we have to get our arms around these definitions, and so really, that's the first half of the book is helping people think through that. 19:54 There's also a chapter when the common good is political. Not everything about the common good is political, but a lot of times when we're loving people enough to care about the quality of their lives in the context of the societies in which they live, that involves the political. So how can we think about this better? You know, in some ways I really wanted the book to have been written, even though I couldn't do it before the election because we saw so many of these bad thinking points. The mantras in the church, like Christians shouldn't seek power, and if we get involved in politics, we're harming our witness, we're imposing our values on others. I tackle all those objections in the book. 20:31 - Speaker 2 But wouldn't that be? Let's just be candid right now. If you were Satan, wouldn't you say those very things? Absolutely Translation behind the scenes. If I'm the devil, I'm thinking, oh crud. They're the only ones that have the answer. The message that they have is actually truth and it could really fix things. So how do I keep them from getting involved? Shame them, label them, tag them, take the narrative from them, reframe it. And isn't it sad? 21:02 Today I get in trouble for this all the time and it's almost become comical. Well, you know, pastor, you're the political pastor and I used to get offended at that, and then I don't now anymore because I had my. I had two golden moments, natasha, where the Republican Party came to me on separate occasions. Party came to me on separate occasions and they said we want you to run for office and you won't have to pay for anything. We just want you to run for office, you're going to win. And I said I don't have to pray about this. I don't even have to pray. The answer is absolutely no. The reason why is I know what I'm called to do. But the funny thing is, if I would step into the political realm, if I would have number one. I'm just as able to do that as a constitutional right than anybody else. It just so happens that I'm a believer. 22:00 So for me, I did not want to choose sides, because to me that would be choosing sides where the Republican Party twice asked me to run for office. Why would I do that? I would marginalize myself personally from where I'm at. You say, jack, well, you're not making the case. No, I am making the case because where I'm called, I'm called to speak globally over the issues of Republican, democrat, independent. I don't even care about those titles. Here's my point when somebody comes up and says it's okay to kill babies in the womb, it is fundamentally wrong to say that is a Republican, independent or Democrat issue. 22:42 You want to know where I'm offended? I'm offended when Christians let the world steal a biblical topic, marriage, the definition and say Christian, get out of the arena, you have no say in this. We're making it a political issue. We're raising the flag up on abortion, definition of marriage, when the church can and cannot meet or whatever it is. You stay out of it and if you come into it you're being political. Well, oh so you get to be political, I don't. And yet you're stealing truth and you're redefining it. To me, those are fighting words to me and it's not political. I don't. I don't gripe about taxes, I I'm not griping about this, that or the other thing, even though I might disagree. That's not my thing as a Christian leader. My call and your book is so great on this is this is the biblical issue and you cannot let it be politicized to where you have no say. You think you have no comment. You do have comment, you do. I think we have the ultimate say to it and I love the boldness that's in your book. 23:53 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I think it's so important for people to just think about. Well, what does politics even mean? And I try to get back to definitions again in the book. So much of this comes back to defining things. Well, right, politics is just the way that people living in communities make decisions about how they're going to live together. 24:07 As Christians, we're part of this country. We live in this constitutional republic like everyone else. So of course, we should have the right politically to advocate for what is good and what is right in society. And if we're not going to be the ones who are actually advocating according to true, god-based definitions of good and evil, others are going to advocate for those things and call good evil and evil good. So if we're not going to get out there and advocate for the right things, who will? It's got to be us. I mean, in Romans 13, we get the purpose of government right, that civil rulers are to promote the good and restrain the evil. Well, that presupposes that we're defining good and evil rightly, and it's Christians who are going to do that. So of course we have to be involved in the public square Of course we have to advocate in politics. 24:52 - Speaker 2 This is so good because two things come to mind with what you just said. So Romans 13 tells us that God has established the governmental authorities for his glory and for good. It says that the minister of righteousness is to do righteousness. And so Isaiah, chapter 10, verse 1, says woe unto those who write misfortune for the people and bad laws. Isaiah 10, verse 1. 25:17 So government can go awry, it can go off the rails, but and you might remember who some great said that the church should be the conscience of a nation. I don't know if that was Bonhoeffer or who said that, but it's such a great statement because there is that realm of in this. Thank you, by the way, for saying a constitutional republic. Folks, you don't hear that anymore, hardly ever. But that's what we live in. We do not live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic where we, the people it's amazing, it's rare, but we're the ones that are supposed to elect our leaders and then hold them accountable. And so who's going to hold them accountable, right? Well, whoever's going to hold them accountable is the one that's going to speak up. And if you speak up without a biblical worldview, then you are just pulling something out of the air and saying, well, I think we should do this based on our feelings, what we feel. So let's take a consensus, and who feels this the most, the closest to us, and it's pandemonium. It's really what the Bible warned that every man will do what's right in his own eyes, where, as John Adams said, any nation that decides to pick up the Bible and make it their book of law will be a nation that prospers. That's an awesome statement. 26:37 You say, well, I'm not a believer. Yeah, that's okay too. You know, our founding fathers created a government that gave the exact same rights to the believer and the non-believer. It's never happened before in human history, and I love that. About their confidence in the government that they were giving us was it's founded upon truth, and Jefferson mentions numerous times that. So much, in fact, almost verbatim. Some of his great, famous statements in the Declaration of Independence were quotations from John Locke in his two-volume Treaty of Government and in that book. John Locke quotes 1,500 Bible verses in those two volumes. It's amazing. Getting back to truth, what do you hope your book achieves in the minds of the reader? How do you want to see them converted with your argument? 27:39 - Speaker 3 I want them to see that our public influence matters and to have an idea of how to do it. So the book is very practical, I think. 27:47 I specifically wrote it to be practical. So that first half gives all of those principles to understand why it matters the things that we're talking about today. The second half of the book then says okay, here are five specific issues where culture is going to hate you for advocating for a biblical view. Let's better understand them. Let's better understand where the hostility comes from. And each of those chapters ends with action points for the common good ideas. 28:11 I mean there are many ways that you can get involved in advocating for righteousness in society. These are just a few ideas to help people think about it. So I talk about subjects like abortion, christian nationalism, social justice, transgender issues and the sexualization of children. Those are the specific topics that I hit there. And you know I make the point in the book too that when we talk about culture hating us, that's not to say culture hates us for everything we believe and do. So, for example, my husband is the president of the Orange County Rescue Mission. He does not get hatred because he's helping the homeless. By and large, our culture is totally fine with you wanting to help homeless people. 28:49 It lines up with the progress of the day the spirit of the times, homeless people it lines up with the progress of the day, the spirit of the times. But well, if they start getting involved in other issues about, hey, we have a certain standard of faith, or things like that then you're going to feel it. But when you start taking a step back and you say, well, what if I'm advocating publicly, not for a homeless shelter, but now I'm advocating publicly for a pregnancy crisis center, for example, now the culture hates you. There's a reason for that, because now you're running up against the popular moral consensus, so we're not going to be hated for everything. And that's not the claim of this book, that's not what either of us is saying when we said that. 29:26 Jesus would hate you, but scripture is really clear that you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. So those who are a slave to sin are going to hate the children of God who are slaves to righteousness, because we're actually shining light on the works of darkness. No one's going to like you for that. So really I hope that people will come away from this book going I need to step out more, and I've seen several reviews saying that that's the effect it had on them that they realize I'm going to get off of the living room couch, I'm going to go do something. I understand this matters. I'm not going to let those mantras out there anymore affect me and keep me silent, because this matters. It's something that we are called to do. 30:06 - Speaker 2 It's awesome because I want you guys to know that what she has written about I can tell you that from just from one reporter's opinion, I should say observer really is that what she's saying works. Because in our own church, when people were informed from the pulpit that this is what's happening in our school board, for example, I didn't say anything to any particular parent. I didn't say you with the red shirt, you know you should run for school board president and you should run for mayor. I never said that God spoke to people. When they were informed that this is what's happening, their first thought was something needs to be done about this. It's because it's wrong. It's wrong, it's wrong in every level. It's wrong. And then they began to pray and they got involved. They ran for the mayor's office and they got elected. They ran for school board and they got elected. And somebody like, for example I'm telling you, without saying names, that's exactly what happened here, without saying names, that's exactly what happened here. And then what's the next thing that happened? The Foundation, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, put a headquarters they're based in Wisconsin. They put a headquarters here in town to counter and we found out not too long ago that George Soros actually was giving them money to do what To stop the light from advancing. 31:47 So these are school board individuals and people who didn't say we're going to preach the gospel every day in the classroom. They never said that, they just happened to be Christians who got involved. So, for example, you mentioned your husband doing what he does. Everybody's fine with it, not a problem, good for you. But if it got out, for example, that your husband I'm not saying he's doing this, I'm just saying if somebody found out that your husband is feeding those that are in need and giving them a Gideon Bible, now there's a problem. People would like wait a minute. Separation of church and state. You can't do that. I find it incredibly hypocritical that when someone does that, if they were to do that and hand out a Quran, nobody would say a word. They wouldn't say either for fear or what. I do not know the reason. But you mentioned Jesus. Look, you can take a hammer and hit your own finger and yell Mohammed or Buddha. No one's going to bat an eye. You say Jesus. People do not call upon Mohammed. When they slam their finger in the door, they call upon Jesus. Isn't that interesting? What in the world is going on. 33:01 You have introduced your readers on how to get involved. Because it's righteousness. People will say well, isn't that reserved for you, professional religionists, to do righteousness? No, it's not. Listen to this. 33:14 The scripture tells us casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity and to the obedience of Christ. Next verse this is 2nd Corinthians 10, verse 6 is coming up, not 2nd Chronicles. Listen, this is 2 Corinthians 10, verse 6. And being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 33:45 Your book literally writes on that topic Obey God, do the right thing, don't worry about what other people say, or they might unfriend you or whatever. Be on the right side of the Lord and people are going to hate you because they see the Jesus action in your life. They're going to associate you with Jesus. They may or may not understand that part, but when you become salt and light to your family, to the community around you, people are not going to like you when you do that. And yet the amazing thing is, as you well know, throughout church history the greatest benefits in a culture and a society have come from church, from the believer. Society have come from church, from the believer, and it's just a remarkable thing, natasha. Why, why is it that your book, why is it that your book had to be written? Thank God, it is, it is and it's out and you can get it everybody at where? Amazon or where. 34:53 - Speaker 3 Amazon and other online book retailers. Other online books yeah. 34:57 - Speaker 2 But Amazon's really good because the algorithm bump it up. Get it, buy it. I'm a big fan of promoting other people's books that I believe in. Buy two copies, keep one for yourself and give one away. But why did this book have to? Why did you have to write this book? Why is this book something that I wish honestly didn't have to be written? Like I wrote a while back, living in the days of deception, it's sad I had to write the book. It's sad, but the Bible tells us that man without Christ loves a lie. You saw something. You saw the need, you felt the tug from the Lord to write this book. Take us now Twice. You've referenced the front end of the book. Take us to the back end of the book as to why that has to be written, why this has to be said, to why that has to be written, why this has to be said. 35:52 - Speaker 3 So for each of those individual issues, the culture is not overwhelmingly saying hey, christians, you're just wrong intellectually about that, and they're not walking away. They're saying that we're evil for our beliefs on these things. So when we talk about abortion, when we talk about transgender issues and sexuality, it is very much a claim against us that we are doing something harmful and morally wrong. It's not just an intellectual disagreement that we're having, and I think that's what Christians need to grapple with to understand the nature of those issues and why culture thinks that we're so harmful. So I'm really trying to get into the mindset of the world to say this this is what they're thinking. So, for example, in my chapter on abortion, the chapter is called controlling misogynists, because that's how culture sees us. They don't see us, as you know, the heroes of preborn babies. You're a controlling misogynist. Well, let's think about the language there as an example of how they're seeing us. They're seeing this primarily from a perspective of you're harming women in some way. I mean, if we really try to understand the mindset so that we can better engage, we have to understand very few people are out there saying I love killing babies. That's not the message that that culture has. They are, of course, advocating for the right to do that. That has the outcome of it, but from their perspective they're saying we don't wanna harm women. 37:11 So in that chapter I'm trying to help Christians better understand. Okay, this is why they hate us, because they think that we're harming women when we advocate for pro-life policies. So let's actually address that specific claim about harm to women. And so I just go through all of these different objections in the chapter that are all about how women are harmed, whether it's because they're going to have to bear their rapist child or because we're somehow controlling their bodies, they're being forced to raise kids in bad circumstances. All of these are the kinds of objections that you hear. And so I think it's important for us to not just know the biblical position Of course we have to know the biblical position, and I present that in the book but to also understand the culture. So I did a lot of legwork in those chapters to help us better get that, so that we can better engage with non-believers and, importantly, better advocate for what is right on these issues. 38:03 - Speaker 2 How did we get here? How did we? How, just generically speaking, how did we as a, as a woman, woman, how did the woman, the female in our culture today, come to the place where it's not only okay to kill the baby that's within me, but to see it almost as a virtue from their perspective, natasha, where I mean where? How did that happen? Because doesn't doesn't a woman, doesn't a female have a sense of this god-given maternity, that this is a miracle in me? Even if they hear it, they oh look, I'm positive. They don't even know. They haven't even gotten morning sickness yet. I'm positive. It's always been my understanding. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but it seems like that was something where good, bad or ugly, there was this maternal. What am I gonna do? I mean, I have this issue. Well, the issue is, because it's a human, it's a big deal. What's going on? Good, bad or ugly, it's a big deal. Now it's like, oh, you know what? You've seen this more than I have, people with banners. I'm glad I had an abortion. 39:30 - Speaker 3 What is this? Well, I think this reminds me of my last book, in Faithfully Different, where I identify what I think are the four basic tenets of secularism. If the authority for everything that's true comes back to the self, there are some things that you're going to have in common with other people whose authority of the self ironically as it is. Number one, feelings are going to be your ultimate guide. Number two happiness is your ultimate goal. Number three judging is the ultimate sin. And number four, god is the ultimate guest. So these are the four tenets I identify in that book and work through those. The one, specifically, though, that comes to mind when you ask that question is happiness is the ultimate goal. If you have come to believe the cultural lie that happiness is the ultimate goal of your life, that that is everything you're seeking, you can justify anything. You can justify absolutely anything, and I think that's what you see in a lot of these cases where people are talking about, for example, the shout your abortion movement. Right, hashtag, shout your abortion. And people were talking about hey, I'm glad I had an abortion. It's so hard to fathom, right, it's so hard to understand. But if you understand that mentality that whatever makes you happy is the right thing to do. You start getting into that mindset. 40:39 I think of where people are coming from, because they're basically saying, hey, I had an abortion and my abortion made me happy, and in our culture that's like a mic drop moment. In our culture people think that if you say, oh, you don't need to talk to me anymore about that, I'm happy. I'm happy, keep your Christianity, that's okay, I'm happy. They assume, because they're presupposing that within their worldview, that that's the most important thing they could let you know about themselves that mic drop, I'm happy and I can walk away. So if you have completely embraced that lie, that that's what your life is about to be, the happiest you can be, then you're going to justify all of these kinds of activities, not just abortion, but anything else. And so, even though it is hard to get our heads around, I think that that is where it stems from, that people think I'm going to be in a better place now than I was if I had had this baby and therefore I'm happier. 41:33 - Speaker 2 Is that amazing. So this type of what? Is it an Epicurean pursuit, a pleasure pursuit? A humanism? Yeah, we should have learned by now, right, when we pursue these appetites or when we say things like I'm happy with my abortion, that over time there's a callousness that is formed to where I think might have been Norman Geisler. Somebody once said a long time ago that when God dies in the mind of a man, then man dies. In other words, if I don't have anybody to answer to, if it is the survival of the fittest, then I win. I'll see to it, and so. But with that self-ness there comes a callousness, a coldness, a loveless worldview that it's as long as I'm happy. And I mean it's textbook Romans 1, isn't it? 42:41 - Speaker 3 It is. They are suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. It is a moral issue. It's interesting, though, because it's consistent within their worldview. Right, if there is no external authority, then it's consistent to believe that the authority is you, you, just you know you get to decide everything for yourself, because there is no God who's revealed himself in some way. So in one sense, it's interesting to see that they're being consistent within their worldview. It's just that their basis for reality is completely objectively wrong. 43:27 - Speaker 2 Yeah, do you think and I mentioned callousness that statement came from this thought? I may be, but I remember when I was not a believer and the thought of God existing made me uncomfortable and so I spent a lot of energy. When I say energy, I would lay down at night, and then the energy would be spent in my head arguing with myself why there isn't a God and what I just did doesn't matter and it's grueling to live like that, would you say. Or are you saying that there are people who they laid out at night and they don't have that Because Jesus said the Holy Spirit has come to convict the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment? What terrifies me is, if I understand Romans 1 right, there comes a point in time when they're not battling that anymore. Do you believe that? Do you believe that women would say I'm so glad I had my abortion? I want to believe that. They're being bombastic and silly and at night, when the cameras are off, they don't really mean it, but you're saying they mean it. 44:39 - Speaker 3 Well, I think it depends on the person. I mean, there are different layers of that right. I think for some people they are just covering up. I think, deep down, everyone has a sense that this is a human being, and I think that's one of the reasons why Christians should continue to speak out, not just to say, well, their worldview is wrong, so they're not going to hear anything we have to say. 44:58 You know, if Romans 1 is true, which we believe it to be, then that means that actually what we need to do is draw out of them what they already know to be true. So the more that we can share to get people thinking about this as a human being, the more it kind of rises the thought in their minds that wait a second. This actually is wrong, because I do think that deep down, deep down everybody knows that, of course, but they're covering it up. 45:24 And so for some people they might be so calloused to it that it might be buried so far under that it's harder to reach them. It depends on the individual. 45:32 - Speaker 2 Yeah, because Romans does say Paul wrote, who, knowing God, did not give him glory. Yeah, and like you said earlier, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and, if I remember right, even they're aware that he should receive glory and honor and praise, but they refuse to give it to him. That is something that is so incredibly powerful. Wrapping this up, what is something I've not asked you, that you want to make sure gets said today? 46:09 - Speaker 3 Well, we've talked about a lot of great stuff from the book, but I would just say the final chapter of the book is one that a lot of Christians aren't talking about. I do think that I've given it a unique framing in the rest of the book in terms of the issues that Christians are discussing, like abortion and things like that, but the final chapter in the book is about the attempt to liberate children sexually, and this is a very grim and dark topic, but I don't hear Christians talking about it much. A lot of people have written about sexuality in general and LGBTQ issues. This chapter is not about that, but rather about the fact that there is a subset of activists in that community who are actually advocating for the sexual liberation of children, meaning they want children to experience sexual pleasure themselves, and this, as I said, I know that's very dark and grim, but basically, the more that you see a society that's willing to say everything is a social construct, everything is just a you know, something that we've come up with as a society in terms of gender or sexuality, well, the next thing that's going to go is anything around age, and so childhood innocence quote, unquote childhood innocence as a concept is something that is trying, that they're trying to deconstruct. So this comes from and I know we don't have time to get into it but an area called queer theory. If you Google queer theory and childhood innocence, what you'll see is that there are plenty of activists who are working according to the perspective of queer theory, who wanna get rid of any concept of that childhood innocence so that children can participate sexually as well. 47:43 And what is truly shocking about it is that a huge avenue through which this is coming in is the Drag Queen Story Hour. Most people, most people, just think they're being what I call mainstream allies. They want to support the LGBTQ community. They want to bring kids to the Drag Queen Story Hour, thinking it's about acceptance and tolerance and inclusion. But I talk in that chapter about the fact that people who are directly involved with it in fact, one of the board members of Drag Queen Story Hour has published a whole academic paper on how that's not what it's about. They'll tell you themselves. You can actually read the paper. They basically acknowledge in it that it's not just about kids learning about queer lives this is their language but about teaching kids to live queerly. And you have to understand from the perspective of this theory queer theory. Queer does not mean gay. In this context, that's what most of us associate with that terminology. 48:40 Right. But what they mean by queer is that you are deconstructing all norms around gender and sexuality. So it's not that they're saying, hey, we're trying to make your kids gay per se. What they're saying is we're trying to get your kids to get rid of any idea that there are norms around gender and sexuality from a young age. So when you get rid of gender, you get rid of sexuality. You teach them to live queerly, as the paper talks about. That's at any age, and so they're starting from a young age. Because they believe that if you don't start from a young age, then you just get kids educated into this pipeline of cisgender heterosexuality. And this whole paper lays it out. 49:18 I mean, this is not my imagination, people. People think, oh, you know, drag queen story hour, it's not that big of a deal, right? Why are you Christians speaking out about it? Well, it is a big deal and there are activists themselves who will tell you that this is one of the avenues through which this is coming in to teach kids from a young age that they can participate in sexual activities. That's just one example. You see pride parades today that are supposed to be family friendly, and yet there are a lot of events taking place and those that aren't family friendly at all. That's not to say that every single activist is advocating for this specifically, but there is a subset and it's growing, and I think that it is one of the biggest concerns that not enough people are aware of. 50:01 - Speaker 2 Excuse me. So we shouldn't be surprised if we're hated for standing up for what's right. We shouldn't be surprised by the magnitude and level of confusion. Scripture talks about this, and we shouldn't be surprised, though it's tragically painful that we're seeing children attacked, mutilated, disfigured in the name of exclusion, inclusion, sorry. And yet everything that we're talking about right now, the Bible foretold no-transcript it would have been better for you not to have been born. In other words, modern day Jesus is saying that if you destroy the model that God has created male, female, the family unit, life and you twist it and you manipulate it to destruction that, your judgment in eternity, your judgment before the throne of God, it's unthinkable for Jesus to, for Jesus said it it's going to be so bad for you that it would have been better for you not to even been born. It's terrifying, but yet it should speak to the magnitude and level of how precious innocence is to God and, as parents were to protect that and defend that with our children rather than expose them. Well, you know they're going to hear it sooner or later. 51:56 That kind of talk is so irresponsible. Well, you know they're gonna see it someday. Better now than it's so horrific, and I don't want to be. I have to be careful. I don't want to be over-the-top spiritually crazy on this, but I also want to be theologically accurate to where Jesus said in the last days it's going to be like it was in the age of Sodom and Gomorrah, like it was in the days of Noah as well. And when we see I mean, how much further can it go where parents are willingly putting their child on this sacrificial block? Isn't that what the Old Testament told us about regarding Remphan and Moloch and these other deities, where parents brought their kids to be destroyed? And it's happening again and it's almost, it seems almost impossible because we live in this technology, enlightened age. But aren't we getting more I say we as a culture, darker and more dangerous to where there's a better chance for you to survive if you're an eagle egg than a baby in the womb? It's unbelievable. Your book is amazing. 53:21 And again, everybody, you can get this at amazoncom. I encourage you to do that. Natasha might disagree, but I, I would say amazon. For this reason, everybody, because people christians will say I don't buy stuff from amazon. Yes, you do. Um the, if you get it from amazon, it does a very, very bizarre thing. It's great, it it. It manipulates their algorithm. The orders wind up actually populating the book upward and it gets greater exposure. We want her book to have greater exposure and Amazon. The computer system will rank it and it will say, for example, it's number five in this category. That's a good thing. 54:04 - Speaker 3 That's what we want to have happen when culture hates you and the subtitle is again Persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public square. It's a mouthful compared to the title. Easy to remember title difficult to remember subtitle. 54:18 - Speaker 2 Yeah, but the subtitle is the punch. And so, christian, be encouraged. Listen. When the world doesn't like you because you're speaking Jesus words, when the world doesn't like you because you're going to stand up and do the right thing or you're going to call evil out, you know we're supposed to do that. We're supposed to be watchmen on the wall proclaiming the danger that's coming. We're living in a time that's more dangerous now, especially for our children, than ever before. 54:42 But note this it's not a coincidence that the things that God has made that are good are all the things under attack. Masculinity, the right for a woman to be a woman safely, to bear children, to be a family, to reproduce, to have faith, to do good, to love others All of these things are under attack. I'm going to submit to you today that it's not a coincidence that it is actually revealed in Scripture as a plot and a plan of the demonic powers that seek to deceive you and to capture you. And I'll end with this God loves you. You may be watching this right now, and I hope you are, and you're thinking, man, I disagree with these people. That's okay. What we don't want you to do is disagree with Jesus. Ultimately, we want you to come to know him, because all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God. He loves you, even though your sins have separated you from God. 55:49 It is true the Bible says he's angry with the wicked every day, but he also says that he's not willing that any should perish. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, yours included, and he rose again from the dead for our justification. In other words, jesus paid the price. Three days later he rose again from the dead for our justification. In other words, jesus paid the price. Three days later he rose again from the grave to make sure that his atonement is available to you. You can have a complete life change. Listen, you say you're open-minded, that I'd ask you to consider Jesus, consider Christ, and get her book, natasha Crane Excellent book, read it and pass it on to others. So, natasha, thank you. 56:32 - Speaker 3 Awesome, thank you so much so good to talk to you, good to talk to you. 56:35 - Speaker 2 God bless you guys, until next time. 56:41 - Speaker 1 This Jack Hibbs podcast, as well as all the broadcast outreach opportunities, are listener supported. Will you consider partnering with us through a special gift? Go to https://jackhibbs.com to learn more and stay connected.