How To Spend Other People's Money

Real life presents the Jack Hibbs podcast with intention and boldness to proclaim truth, equip the saints and impact our culture. Hey everybody we are going to be sitting down right now with Dr. Irwin Lutzer. You are going to be absolutely challenged regarding capitalism, communism, atheism, belief in God. It matters. You're going to find out how much in just a moment. You can get the outlines of this podcast by going to jackhibbs.com slash podcast. Today if this podcast lifts you up and encourages you to live a more fulfilled life in Christ, then make sure you leave us one of those five star ratings. To us that's like saying amen or yes, then that rating will encourage others to listen. Now open your hearts to what God's word has to say to you. Here is Jack Hibbs. Well listen welcome to the Jack Hibbs show and we are delighted to have with us today a man that is not only a legend in our time. He's a legend in the library. He's a legend in the pulpit. He's a legend sitting at the table and I'm talking about the wonderful pastor and tremendous preacher and teacher of the word of God at Moody Bible Church. Dr. Irwin Lutzer and he's authored over 70 books and he spent 36 years in that pulpit at the great Moody Church in Chicago and now we have the honor of having him on our program right now today. So Dr. Irwin it's awesome to have you and we love you so much. You already know that. Thank you so much Jack and of course as I think about your ministry I rejoice in the fact that God has given you a wide audience and you and I share the same passion namely to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to this generation but things are changing aren't they? They are changing and that reality brings us to the table today. We're delighted that you've been able to come and we want to talk about not only what your great book is about we will not be silenced but I'm afraid that this great book of yours may have been written a little late unless there is some sort of an awakening in our nation because it sounds like as a country we have grown silent. We have seen some bizarre things happen in our political culture in our religious or faith culture but I want you to just speak to some things that are on your heart because here we are sitting right now and in the midst of the era in which we're in right now the political atmosphere we're in right now America has recently made some decisions that are quite shocking and I'd love to hear what you are thinking and what you're planning on and how you're going to address what we're living through right now. Well Jack first of all since you referenced my book it has an entire chapter on socialism and what I'm going to do is to begin by talking about why it can't work. Everybody says oh socialism doesn't work but sometimes they don't flush that out and say why doesn't it work? So what we have to understand is first of all socialism is the government taking care of the means of production it is the means by which you take control of the economy to bring about equality equality is the big word now when it comes to socialism they love certain slogans you know not only free health care but free buses free this free that like that so the other day I saw a t-shirt that said this the dream is free but paying for the hassle to get there is billed separately yes so the dream is free yeah have you ever noticed this about socialists they never talk about the ability to earn money or to multiply money only how it's to be divided that's right so we have to begin by explaining to people why it is that socialists run out of money now isn't it interesting that candidates who advance democratic socialism and we'll define that a little bit more specifically right out of the communist manifesto the candidates that are running on a democratic socialism platform where do they get all their money they get it from people who made their money to capitalism that's right and then what becomes also very interesting is the fact that they don't understand this socialism pure socialism can never make money it can only spend it so in other words to illustrate it let's think of a pie okay here's a pie and somebody says we have to divide this up so that it's equal you know there are some people who have a bigger piece of the pie than this person over here he has a smaller piece let's make it equal okay so we divided it all up into various pieces and then we give away the pieces and you know what we're left with an empty dish right there no more pies no more pie and that's why socialism can work for a little while until you've exhausted all the money that was made through capitalism and then you get into difficulty and people need to understand that this is so critical you know perhaps somebody is watching this and saying why is it that two pastors are interested in this why is it that we are so concerned about what is happening in our culture how does it relate to the gospel well at some point we're going to talk about that in this podcast and if not I'm going to mention at the end because that's very critical yeah absolutely very critical so here's what you have them you have a system that is going to take care and actually what shall we say control the economy sure to bring about fairness so what you're going to do as an example is you're going to put a cap on rent okay who is going to build new housing who is going to invest in buying rental property nobody nobody nobody and so what you do is you control the economy you take out all the initiative and what you do then is you have this supply of money and when you run out of money wasn't it Margaret Thatcher you know you're famously said you know the quote yeah you know the problem with socialism is pretty soon you run out of other people's money and then what do you do so people need to understand that it cannot work and you don't have to be an economist to figure this out right eventually the state runs out of money now let's talk about initiative there you go by the way in this book that we're talking about I think the chapter is entitled so capitalism is the disease socialism is the cure and that's where I discuss this what you and I need to understand is this and there's another slogan also that people oftentimes use and it has to do with capitalism is based on greed socialism is based on need is there greed in capitalism absolutely greed is everywhere the seeds yeah the seeds of greed are in all of us but Jack the opposite is true socialism is based on greed and it's not based on need so what happens okay it's 1985 I'm preaching I don't know where you were in 1985 but I took a trip with my wife to the Soviet Union we were actually in Russia I would be there five years later really yes very fascinating I don't know how much better it was at that time but here my interpreter tells me this he said that he worked in a factory that made shoes nobody could wear them because the contour on the foot was wrong the contour was backwards so nobody could wear them but they kept manufacturing them because they kept being paid whether or not people bought it or not so it didn't matter whether or not people needed it or wanted it socialism actually is the one that then makes things that nobody needs yes capitalism if you did that in a capitalistic world you know it'd it'd all be gone because if people aren't going to buy it if they don't want it right then of course you don't do it it's fascinating what you're saying I not only went to Russia shortly after you but wound up making 22 trips back to Russia and collectively probably spent over the years as though I lived there a year what people don't realize is that when Reagan said Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall we went in there and I was first of all shocked by the radical division between the old St. Petersburg for example the old Moscow under Peter the Great very ornate very European looking buildings very old very beautiful large spacious parks all of this and then the Soviet era construction big gray 40-foot story buildings looking like a mouse trap heartless cold bitter lifeless and the people reflected that culture there were those who remembered the past I had a woman doctor grabbed me by the face she actually grabbed me by the face she was in her 90s and I was preaching the gospel out in front of a metro stop in Moscow and she dropped her her bags of mushrooms and she grabbed me by the face saying Slava Boga Slava Boga and I didn't know what that meant my translators telling me as she's crying this woman is speaking and she's saying praise God praise God I remember when the Soviet when the when the communists came in it took the crosses and the icons off of our apartment and said God God was dead and she said I've been praying all of these years that the gospel would be preached in my city again having said that there was this incredible stark difference and you said it exactly right socialism needs someone else to pay for everything that it wants to get its hands on it it claims that we need to be equal but the the equality is a lie because they want you to work while they do not work they want you to produce while they consume I'm going to see if I can pull a quote out of my mind from Winston Churchill the great vice of capitalism is the uneven distribution of blessings the great virtue of socialism is the equal distribution of misery wow so true that so true and you know since since you get into that I have to do in 1970 my wife and I actually went into East Germany and it's because I lead and it up leading tours to the sites of the Reformation in Germany and as a result of that but we had to go through checkpoint Charlie and all and so we get into Eastern Germany where most of the Luther sites are the sense of deadness people weren't smiling and then you go in the store and maybe they had one kind of meat exactly I saw that maybe one kind of meat maybe the next day they were going to have rice why look at our look at our stores right you can have this kind of cheese that kind of cheese you can have this my sister was a missionary in African she came back she couldn't even go into our store she was so frustrated she didn't know what she should choose exactly that only capitalism can do that I was in another communist country where the man said the pastor said we don't have any gifts to give it Christmas we sit around and sing Christmas carols and we bring our food together so that we can eat but there's nothing in the stores the shelves are empty so what people have to understand is this something else sometimes it is said oh socialism makes it so easy because it isn't based on greed socialism institutes correction that's right why if you want to earn more money because of your family working harder won't do it because you know you're put in this box you're paid a certain amount of money so you know what you do you game the system that's right over and over again and I discovered even Christians in the Soviet Union in Russia had to game the system they didn't break any moral laws but they broke some of the laws of their country like you shouldn't accept American money exactly I saw that happen I do you know that that's that's the law but they did because they had to feed their families now something else that I learned in Russia the interpreter says nobody can live on the wages that we get from the government so there was a whole shadow of an economy that was run basically by the people in terms of bartering that's right you know I need some potatoes okay I'll give you a barrel of potatoes or a bushel or whatever but you have to come and fix the door in my apartment which doesn't fit let's see if we can work something out that's the way in which they survive right I saw it yeah and and that's the way things go and so corruption is at the heart of the socialistic system now of course capitalism has its corruption too and we're so thankful for the laws that are put in place and so forth now Jack since we're talking about democratic socialism what do you have what do you have there I have the communist manifesto because of something else that I'm working on I've read this document very carefully and what I have uncovered is so fascinating we can't even get into it here yeah but here's here's the word democracy so I'm gonna read the communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional property relations no wonder that its development involves the most radical rupture with traditional ideas but let us have done with the bourgeoisie that is the property owners objections to communism we have seen above that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the workers to the position of ruling class and then establish democracy so here's what you do you destroy all of the people the owners you have to get rid of them because what Mark says early on is the heart of it is there's no private property so all the owners have to be put to death because you know they own things so you get rid of them because they're created there's so much we could say Jack when communism is implemented what the people are looking for who are going to implement it are criminals yes you have to be a criminal it's always been the case you you have to be a criminal yes and oh there's so much else we could get into but here's the point well let's get into it but here's the point so once you take the property away and you kill all the owners then you have established democracy that's what it says right here in the communist manifesto so there is a sense in which it is interested like Putin he has democracy that's right you know all of the communist countries they all have democracy even though there is only one person you can vote for that's right but it is well you just raised a very very good point to to our experiment as Americans our founding fathers clearly articulated they studied the previous empires and the monarchies before and they concluded we will not have a democracy in America we will have a constitutional republic and no one had ever done that before because prior with the divine right of kings and you may call the the Tsar or the Kaiser or the king but for America this was completely different and of course Ben Franklin said that he the founders provided us a democracy I mean I'm sorry a republic if you can keep it what you and I are watching right now is a bunch of spoiled brats quite frankly growing up with a basically an iPhone in their face at the age of one they think everything just falls out of an ATM machine and that they want to they see a they see a car maybe it's a Porsche and they want it but they're not willing to go to USC or to get the degree or to learn that skill that gives you the resources to get that kind of of an item and so you nailed it it's it's the criminality of the human heart longing and lusting for what someone else has I don't want to roll up my sleeves to get it I'm just going to take it from them and that's a bad day when that mindset becomes our government leaders we're sitting in California I got to tell you I have to tell you I'm going to be honest I haven't said this to anyone publicly but I'll get over it and here's the deal I listened to your advice some time ago and wrote a book with the wonderful people at Harvest House publishers the book did very well I didn't know what to do about that and then I wound up realizing here in California how much effort I put into the writing of that book and the months putting that book together only to turn it the proceeds over by and large to the state of California the the the magnitude of taxes resulted with this I don't in this and I want to make sure I'm saying this correctly it sucked the creativity out of me not because it was a money issue it was because the effort was something that I would not see the benefits of it from my own fingertips to others in other words I couldn't make those proceeds and wind up sending more money to Samaritan's purse or to a homeless outreach no no no I had to send the bulk of it to the state of California jack thank god that you were able to keep a little bit of it this is true I friend of mine told me you should be happy that you had to pay that amount of taxes oh yeah I'm not saying that but I'm saying at least you got a little bit of it in a socialist economy you getting it yes yeah oh there's so much to say Marx said for example and it's all here in the manifesto that no child should ever receive an inheritance and the reason he said that is that it's equal it's not equal you know in other words a child may have more money and everybody's supposed to begin at zero so that you have equality now here's what I have to say Marx always was hitting on his father and mother for money always in fact you know what his mother said tell me she said I wish Carl were actually to earn some capital rather than just writing about it that's an actual quote now here's the point here's the point you're not supposed to receive an inheritance it's right here I could find it instantly and you know what when she died his father had previously died he hired an attorney so that he could get her inheritance there you go so there you go now there's something else I want to say and this is so important to everyone who's listening human rights in the communist system you're not allowed to have freedom of expression and by the way in this book we'll not be silenced there is a whole chapter on freedom of speech and arguments against it and arguments for it I help people to understand the communist side but here's the point you're not supposed to in the communist system to have freedom because after all it is the state that gives you rights okay well the right the state doesn't give you right to criticize the state so you have no basis upon which you can criticize it because it didn't give you that right now I always knew that the statement you know that we believe that all men were created equal and were endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights that come from God Jack that is radical it is radical because you see if the state gives you rights the state can also recent the rights because the only right that you have now the point is this and you know we could go on and have a even a longer discussion what did marks get wrong well of course you know we could talk about how he tried to do away with God I think he believed in God by the way he was railing against God always railing against I love it I think you're going to say because how can you rail against somebody that doesn't exist right right right he railed against God but anyway how can you do wrong if you try to do away with God you capture all of the land owners and steal their property and you also take away people's freedoms you put them in poverty so what could go right but here's the point that I want to make and this relates to the gospel and maybe this is a good time for us to go there it all had to do with human nature marks believed in the perfect ability of human beings yeah he believed that if there was a revolution and the bourgeoisie were taken care of and killed and the proletariat the workers took over that suddenly you would have this wonderful utopia and I don't have it here but there's a quote in which he said it's not in here it's in a different thing that he wrote he believed that everyone would be able to only work what they enjoyed working everyone would enjoy it he said I could do things like you know work in the morning in the afternoon go fishing in the evening have discussions and go hunting also and I would neither become a hunter nor a critic and nor this this I could enjoy all of that well my goodness you look at that and you say what a wonderful life but why the question has to do with sin yeah and the whole idea is that the reason that we do evil is only because of external forces of oppression now that of course comes into our culture with the whole oppression the whole division of humanity that we can't even get into but it's because of oppression remove the oppression yes remove the oppression and you don't even need the police no they can you can defund the police because after all everyone is going to behave so beautifully because the only sin is coming at you yeah it is not within you that's right and there was a man who preceded marks who said this that you are not responsible for your character because your character is shaped by forces outside of you so you have no responsibility for who you are so that's the Marxist doctrine of sin if there is such a thing as sin what does the Bible say the Bible says you have sin in the heart you know I was born a sinner right I was born with a bent toward evil and sin so it has an entirely different entirely different you know reaction to what has happened it's awesome our founding fathers again back well I'm gonna go back to our founding fathers founding fathers the pilgrims people want to argue about 1619 1619 it was horrible 1619 of course the pilgrims I'm talking about the ones that we relate to that made this nation are the 1620 pilgrims but the 1619 guys they had been coming over since roughly about 1605 and they're going to Jamestown right they're planting these these locations and it is recorded in in our historical writings that when people came over they wanted equal distribution of all what that was raised the crops the whatever the fish caught and what happened was there was a bulk of them I think it's in the book the light and the glory I do believe by David Emmanuel or it doesn't matter but it's well documented that by the time the first winter had come the Jamestown people they were starting to starve to death in fact some did starve to death because there were so many not working and mooching off of those that were that it completely skewed the whole mess Jamestown was a disaster there wasn't success until Plymouth and Plymouth is that Judeo Christian worldview value that authored of course the Mayflower Compact very different you've got the difference between Plymouth and Jamestown one built on faith and we're going to roll up our sleeves and we're going to build the country the other one is we're going to start out all being equal and oh by the way some of us don't want to work and that Jamestown thing completely went belly up it was it was a mess it's never worked and one of the things that you notice in a capitalistic culture is that we create we're excited you don't see Apple computer in Tesla and you don't see Ford Motor Company and you don't see SpaceX and coming out of Russia you don't see it coming out of out of China but what's interesting to me is whatever we design here in a in a free country like this it's telling to me that what takes us 10 years to develop you notice China has it in two years they wind up stealing it or buying it well there are tens of thousands of students from all over the world that come to America to learn how to do it they they don't invent their own stuff they take hours there you go now fact you raise so many issues one of them has to do with the founding of America and history did you notice that in communism in socialism one of the things that they do is they vilify our history they point to slavery and so forth which is horrible yeah yeah which is absolutely horrible of course but as if that's the only thing about America now this is actually based on the communist manifesto and other ideas that say this that when you become a communist country the past has to be vilified of course it has to be vilified after all St. Petersburg became Lenin grad and then it became Stalin grad and various streets were renamed because it's actually the beginning and the dawning of a new era even as some of the socialist are talking about so what you have to do is to see that even history has to be vilified and changed here's an illustration so I use in the book okay you're walking along the street and behind you is a 16th century building it's a beautiful building but then you turn a corner and you look behind and what do you see you see something else you've forgotten your history that's right you know that the man's name is not coming to me immediately but he was in a he was an advisor's messenger to president Kennedy yeah want everyone to listen carefully he says history is to a country as memory is to a person if a person loses his memory who is he he doesn't know who he is so he can be told he is whatever they want it to be having no knowledge of where you've come from right and that's one of the things that is being taught today is the vilification of history or the interpretation of history all that to put America in the worst possible light now Jack I want to emphasize why it is that what we're talking about is important it's very important I had a friend who gave a lecture on Christian nationalism and he's a good guy good guy loves the Lord but he was saying in effect that America doesn't really matter that much because he ended by saying the great hope for the world is not America it's Jesus Christ now of course that's where Jesus Christ we know I've given my life to that in your life to that of course is Jesus Christ yeah move but now with a heavy heart I have to say this that's true but there's no nation on earth that is given as much money to missions orphanages yep you know in the four or five most benevolent the most benevolent and if you go across the world as you have more often than I have every ministry in these socialist countries that is preaching the gospel is funded by American dollars and so where do people come when they need money for these ministries they don't go to socialist countries they come to America so I want to ask you something we know that the Marxists the socialist has got to know that really I mean they wouldn't admit it but they've got to know that right they know that when there's an earthquake in Thailand you and I pull out our checkbooks we're transferring money that's not that's not happening like you just said it in other countries that said peel peeling back the onion are going behind the veil it comes down to the spiritual realm doesn't it when we are generous we are acting like Jesus right but the flesh is very greedy very self-centered very um survival of the fittest that's what I'm going to sorry sorry doctor ruin but I'm going to be taking your your portion because I'm stronger and so it's the stronger it's the strongest survives the spiritual side of things is is it doesn't it play right into Satan's doctrines that we know that keep man imprisoned keep man from being creative keep man from having a family keep man from expanding because there's so much value that we get as humans making something with our own hands the crafts be it construction or a book or a message to it is or the repairing of the vehicle doesn't matter what it is we get profound satisfaction right and Satan I think would rather have be in the corner with like we saw in Russia vodka given to you by the state by the way every Russian got their monthly allocation of vodka to keep you numb and dumb and dependent upon the state rather than being in a free society whereby you would be dependent upon God and rolling up your own sleeves to make like you know jack in Israel I read about a completes that decided that they would run it according to socialist principles everybody gets paid the same etc well of course there were those who slept until 10 o'clock James town yeah those who of course they brought their dogs to lunch they left lights on because after all it doesn't matter right matter and you know what the conclusion was we became a paradise for parasites what a word yeah and and that's what socialism does is it brings about that now of course people can say capitalism is greedy and all that we admit that but it's important to have guidelines and so forth and then I don't know if we should get into this but very quickly I was having lunch with a somewhat well-known editor of a national magazine even though he's now retired and he looked at me and he said well the early church they were socialists you know they came together and they had all their goods in common in the book of acts well yeah he's reading but it was totally voluntary you know and a nice and safira you could have kept the land the land was yours to do with whatever you want it's because you lied about it because you lied about it yeah and so if Christians want to get together and share some of their some of their blessings let them but if you can yes but if you keep reading Paul is the one going around taking up offerings to send back to the Jerusalem church because they turned into a culture that was starving to death yeah but wow so here is maybe the bottom line I'm very concerned about America tears almost come to my eyes right now when I think of what is happening what I'm happening in New York and how this could become a template for all of America yes absolutely and so what we have to do is we have to pray and and I don't say that just because it's the right thing to say we have to seek God we have to evangelize to tell others the good news of the gospel but then we have to ask ourselves this question where are we willing to draw the line thank you what is our role what does faithfulness look like and every person has to answer that for themselves because you know to the wife whose home to the homeschooler that'll be answered differently than the businessman who sent me a text and said can I sign this document it had to do with you know transgender pronouns I have to use the pronoun required pronoun all of us have to answer at what point are we willing to do it and then there's a footnote again if I might humbly recognize we will not be silenced I have a chapter on how Islam is willing to team up with socialist yes and the reason is not because they agree on world views but they have a common enemy Christianity and capitalism it's right and so what they are doing is for now we can work together to bring about the destruction of that so to all those who are listening don't let this shake you because our faith is in God yeah we should take it as a badge of honor if we're going to suffer for Christ but at the same time let's not be deceived and think oh there's a new sense of openness because of the assassination of Charlie Kirk there may be maybe but a backlash I believe I hope I'm wrong is it developing yes and we need to ask this and so the bottom line is this Jesus died for sinners we are all sinners our greatest problem is within us not outside of us outside of us there may be many injustices but the deepest part of us is this and we have to take much joy in the fact that our sins can be forgiven our future is totally secure and the gospel of Jesus Christ goes to the very core of who we are and brings about transformation so to those who are listening who've never savingly believed on Christ we urge you to do that because in the midst of the storm what you really need is Jesus believing everything that you just said a green completely what would happen to a person if they did exactly what you just said what would be their life lived in a post prayer to accept Christ repentance and leaning upon him accepting his forgiveness you have a new life I'm asking you this to set you up we've not rehearsed this at all but what I want to get out of you is this did God does God save us to set us over here just so we can run out the clock in our pajamas so to speak and now that I'm saved I'm saved and or does he save us to not only like we said earlier the gospel that's secured you're secured you're you're there you're that's done in the meantime before you come to the end of your days how does this believer live out their discipleship in in the secular world in the day-to-day life what does it look like because I say this for example you mentioned New York New York most Americans don't know what I'm about to say I watch more international news than I watch American news very few Americans know that when Mandani won the marital race in New York City New York City 24 years ago was attacked by Muslim fundamentalist radicals jihadist the the actual person who Mandani says he is 24 years ago we were attacked we were attacked by that doctrine and now that doctrine is in the top seat for that city he got in there by saying I will give you free stuff I will erase all this but you owe we're all going to have everything the same and we're going to text to your point we're going to text all these corporations within the city limits of New York so we can all have everything the same Islam will go to bed with Marxism Islam will go to bed with the lbgtq community absolutely but Satan is smart enough to know how stupid those people are because in history Islam cannot suffer a homosexual to live right they must be put to death but the homosexual community they don't know that so they think hey this new guy we're going to vote for him because he's not a Christian he's a Muslim this is great so how does it Christian in New York City right now if you were a Christian in New York City what do you do how do you live well I guess I have to say with a smile I'm kind of glad I don't live there but here's the thing I while you're asking the question I was thinking of Colossians chapter 3 which I just read this morning and meditated on seek those things which are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God and then it says for when Christ will appear we will appear with him in glory can you imagine that that we will appear so what you do is when it comes to your values only one thing on your mind and that is eternity and not time and ask yourself this question in a hundred years what will I wish I had done today what does faithfulness look like for me and that's I think where we have to go we have children we have grandchildren what what you and I say do right teach vote speak let's be honest you and I could go over here to LAX and fly to Hawaii and have a nice week we're not doing that we're fighting for the future of our children we hope Jesus comes back soon but we fight like he's not going to come back for a hundred years you and I have lived our lives but now we have our kids and our grandkids to fight for we want them to live free we want them and in that part of the responsibility I'll say stewardship of living in a republic is doing the right thing and holding elected officials to accountability to find out who my neighbor is because in my opinion America is heading down a path whereby we are taking our faith away from the big G in God and putting it in the little G of government government is promising everything God said I'll do for you and we isn't it interesting that we that once God is dead in our conscience we stop tithing and we start paying more and more taxes we wind up tithing to the little G and believe it I don't get me wrong we must pay our taxes that said if you're living to have the government pay your way you know that's that's a pretty sad way to live but as you just said fast forward how is government going to help you on your deathbed how is government going to help you with your first step into eternity it ain't going to be there jack you've raised so many questions that is difficult for me to answer but I'll say a couple of comments about a few of them first of all regarding our children in a relay race passing the baton is the most dangerous time the baton can be dropped somebody can pick it up drop it and that's a very difficult time so you and I have to be thinking about our children and I know that I'm saying this to Christian parents don't throw your lambs to the wolves yes don't do that the second thing that you were saying has to do with the whole issue of entitlement we recognize that it is the government's responsibility to help those who absolutely cannot help of course you know for various reasons there there may be people out there but I have to tell you the fraud the fraud much is unbelievable and socialism exacerbates and makes that even more and then what we have to do is we also have to look to the past to see those who are faithful and you know one of my interests is martyrdom where people were willing to say I'm going to stay here now I have to tell you about the story of a woman I didn't intend to get into this but she was in prison for her faith she and her husband had been married just before she went to prison and in prison she discovered she was pregnant her husband was taken out of prison and killed she in prison was allowed to give birth to the baby but what she did is she died for her faith and she wrote a letter to her little baby that she could not raise and I'll tell you when I read that letter I cried I could not hold back the tears wow because here was a woman who is telling her precious little baby that she had to give up I hope some relative got a hold of the child how much she loved her how much she wanted to care for her but at the end of the day Jesus was more precious and being faithful to the gospel was more important than even looking after her now there are people who are going to listen who say no that should have been her first responsibility was the baby we can argue that point but think of the reward in heaven for people like this who said I'm going to be true to Jesus in the worst of circumstances and that I think is where we probably should end today it's been a long podcast asking people this question how much love do you have for Christ that is greater than your love of sin that is greater than your love of self and how do we navigate this so that we end successfully perfectly perfectly well said love for God it's not a five-step program you don't have to go to a 12-step recovery place in Malibu love God most and all those things will begin to fade away he'll begin to lift them from you friends we've been sitting with Dr. Irwin Lutzer and it please by everything this man has written I'm not exaggerating when I say that his ability to craft words and arguments and logic and reason simply they're found in the pages of the books that he has written and he has written many of them we're talking today a little bit about we will not be silenced and it's a powerful book the Ford is written by Dr. David Jeremiah and just encourage you to do what I do I listen to him sometimes I text him and I tell them tell him I just listen to a sermon in the mornings I go to YouTube and I type in your name and it pops up Irwin Lutzer sermons and there's a zillion of them and I get my feeding in the morning from you and I'm so grateful friends do the same and wherever you're at please find a new testament church I have to put it that way now these days a new testament church a church that teaches the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation that does not shy away from the full council of God the Lord has not left you somewhere in a desert there is a group of believers somewhere where you're at in the world and pray he'll lead you to them but by all means the hour is late Christ is coming we need to get ready and getting ready we do that by being disciples and we take his word and his love to every person that we possibly can so until next time God bless you this Jack Hibbs podcast as well as all the broadcast outreach opportunities are listener supported will you consider partnering with us through a special gift go to jackhibbs.com to learn more and stay connected